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Too Bad It Can’t Fit on a Bumper Sticker

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Mary De Voe
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 6:10am

Too bad it can’t fit on a bumper sticker.

Paul W. Primavera
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 6:21am

Suggestion: make paper copies and put them on the windshields of parked cars which sport the COEXIST number sticker. That’ll get the point across.

Liberal. Progressive. Democrat! That’s what this “COEXIST” is all about.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 7:10am

Christians “pose no threat to the others” – Unless one happens to be a Muslim in the Balkans or the Caucuses, a Jew or Gay, pretty well anywhere East of the Vistula or anyone at all who encounters the Lord’s Resistance Army – Unless one subscribes to the “No true Scotsman” fallacy.

Chris Pennington
Chris Pennington
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 7:33am

<Unless one happens to be a Muslim in the Balkans or the Caucuses

Muslim persecution in the Balkans????

Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo are being terribly persecuted. Also to a lesser extent Catholic Croats in Bosnia and it’s not “sectarian”. Its religious based jihad. Muslims enjoy broad power throughout Bosnia and rule with an iron fist in Kosovo.

In Bosnia the Muslim population is actively trying to force out Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats.

The relatively new country of Macedonia is dealing with a militant Albanian Muslim population because they want another pure Muslim country.

a Jew or Gay, pretty well anywhere East of the Vistula

Ow yes, because Jewish and gay people are so well tolerated in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Sudan and other Islamic countries…..

Art Deco
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:00am

Unless one happens to be a Muslim in the Balkans or the Caucuses, a Jew or Gay, pretty well anywhere East of the Vistula or anyone at all who encounters the Lord’s Resistance Army – Unless one subscribes to the “No true Scotsman” fallacy.

It is not a fallacy, Michael. The “Lord’s Resistance Army” is a bizarre heretical sect that has no analogue anywhere else but the small swatches of Uganda and adjacent areas where it has operated.

There are only about 200,000 Jews currently resident east of the Vistula and it is doubtful that the 6% or so of Russia’s population who are religiously observant constitute much of a threat to them. Of course, there used to be many more, but these cleared out of Soviet Russia or were massacred by Nazi Germany and allies.

Bonchamps
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:20am

It’s a fallacy to use the “no true scotsman” fallacy to describe the exclusion of the LRA from the Christian category.

People can call themselves whatever they like. If there’s no objective, minimum criteria by which to determine who belongs in what category, then we may as well stop using words to describe things altogether.

Bonchamps
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:28am

I also object to the whole poster. There’s no such thing as “gay rights.” There are gay demands.

Joe Green
Joe Green
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:45am

It’s come down to his: That all the wisdom of the world be placed on a bumper sticker. It took Thomas Aquinas three huge volumes in Summa Theologica (and he never finished it) to sort out the mysteries of life. Now we can have it all summed up in a few sentences. Wonderful. Next up: The 66 books of the Bible condensed on the back of a cereal box.

Art Deco
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 9:19am

Unless one happens to be a Muslim in the Balkans or the Caucuses, a Jew or Gay,

The Balkans and the Caucasus (like Ulster) are places where confessional distinctions also demarcate ethnic and national loyalties.

I think the experience of the Occidental world in the last forty-odd years suggests that if homosexuality is not kept in check by social custom and public policy (which may or may not include provisions in the penal code) it turns metastatic.

Paul W Primavera
Paul W Primavera
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:05am

“The 66 books of the Bible condensed on the back of a cereal box.”

Actually, the Protestant Bible has 66. Martin Luther ejected 7 from the Bible: Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, Baruch, and 1st and 2nd Maccabees. So the Bible has 73 books (and includes the Greek portions of Daniel and Esther that Martin Luther also rejected).

Foxfier
Admin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:11am

Lord’s Resistance Army

Including that as a knock against Christianity is a rather good sign that you’re reaching and/or blowing smoke. It’s about as Christian as voodoo- and for similar reasons, what with borrowing vocab and sometimes symbols to describe the existing religion.

It’s like trying to shove the “no true scotsman” thing to include a local basketball team whose mascot wears a kilt. “But they’re called the Scots! If you deny that THEY are true Scotsmen, then you’re just accepting the No True Scotsman fallacy!”

Joe Green –
I believe it has been condensed down to a single word:
Love.

Paul W Primavera
Paul W Primavera
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 11:57am

Even a cursory review of the Wikipedia entry on the LRA would have revealed to Michael Paterson-Seymour that there is little if anything Christian about it:

“Ideologically, the group is a syncretic mix of African mysticism, Acholi nationalism, Islam, and Christian fundamentalism. It claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi tradition.”

I suspect that like most anti-Christian people, Michael Paterson-Seymour is far more attached to liberal progressive atheistic ideology than to truth. Such anti-Christian ideologues – Robespierre, Calles, Stalin, Mao, etc. – have been guilty of the most heinous and murderous crimes against humanity. Whether Michael Paterson-Seymour’s ideology runs as deeply as Plutarco Calles’ or Josef Stalin’s remains to be seen.

Mary De Voe
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 12:03pm

Joe Green –
I believe it has been condensed down to a single word:
Love.
God is Love, without God there is no Love. Ask the devil to love you? Love God and your neighbor as yourself. God’s commands and the prophets’.

Joe Green
Joe Green
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 12:16pm

Mary, God and the Beatles must have been in sync.

T. Shaw
T. Shaw
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 12:33pm

“You Can’t Coexist With A Rattlesnake” fits nicely on a bumper sticker.

Here’s a bumper sticker I like, “Defend Freedom – Defeat Obama.”

Joe Green
Joe Green
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 2:18pm

Some of my favorite bumper stickers:

We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 4:47pm

“Ow yes, because Jewish and gay people are so well tolerated in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Sudan and other Islamic countries…..”

But they do not identify as Christians, whereas a remarkable number of Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and Baltic Slavs do. One rather suspects that, in not a few cases, their Orthodoxy is not unlike the Catholic Atheism of Charles Maurras and the more educated mambers of l’Action Française, but their views pn Jews and gays are traditional enough, Even among the highly cultured habitués of the Paris Exarchate [the Evlogy or Rue Daru Connection] many tend to depict the Russian Revolution as the work of “cosmopolitan, anti-Christian elements,” which one rather suspects is a periphrasis for “Jewish”

As for the Balkans, in Bulgaria, it is the literature of the small religious parties (Orthodox) that has the engaging habit of referring to their Muslim fellow-citizens as “Turks” and that hint at some form of repatriation. It would be fanciful to suggest that such attitudes are uncommon in Serbia or Macedonia.

anzlyne
anzlyne
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 5:30pm

LRA is a distraction from this discussion I think. LRA is not a major world religion or movement or philosophy that actually appeals to lots of people.
The categories mentioned are not a Threat to others– except for Islam because of their imperative to convert or kill us.
As I understand it, some of the other violence between religious groups and cultural groups is not explained as growing out of their religious beliefs strictly speaking, but arise because of cultural and economic factors; generational traditions even of hate and distrust– And sinfulness all the way around.
But not religious doctrine…only Islam.

anzlyne
anzlyne
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 6:04pm

The merit of the message “Coexist?”
I read it again more carefully. Gosh sometimes I’m slow. So…the author is saying the symbol word Coexist blames intolerance on Christians and the author thinks Christian religion is falsely blamed here.
and I think Michael thinks Christians are a threat to others. Maybe so, but not because of their religion, maybe because of economic or other issues.
I agree there is no such thing as “gay rights”.
Gay men and lesbians do have a right to life, and Islam would kill them as infidels along with Jews and Christians and all the other nom Islamists.
Pacifists – whether Jewish, Christian, Gay, Pagan, Taoists are not tolerated by Islam because the all those categories are summed up as infidel.
Islam can kill gays, Jews and Christians. I don’t understand why the author even mentions pacifists who support islam– sort of an oxymoron.

It is an attention getting bumper sticker though

Chris Pennington
Chris Pennington
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 7:43pm

But they do not identify as Christians

No, they regard themselves as Muslims and speak out openly against Jews and gay people. Much more so than any Christians in Russia, Ukraine or Belarus do.

As for the Balkans, in Bulgaria, it is the literature of the small religious parties (Orthodox) that has the engaging habit of referring to their Muslim fellow-citizens as “Turks”

If Bulgarians use the term “Turk” as a derogatoy term I do not know, but I suspect in some cases it is so and unfortunate. It is an obvious reference to the occupation and brutality inflicted on Bulgaria by the Ottoman empire.

The fact is in Bulgaria the forced conversion of Christians to Islam is still a deep wound. In addition many of the Muslims in Bulgaria (not all) feel a greater kinship to Turkey than Bulgaria.

Bringing up the Balkans, Caucuses or Bulgaria as a “one liner” doesn’t do justice to the history and struggles of those people during the invasion and occupation by the Ottoman empire and it’s aftermath. Whether its Serbs, Bulgarians or other Christians in those areas history has been re-written and they have been defamed and painted the “bad-guys” in our western media.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:55pm

Joe the Beatles didn’t know true love.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 8:58pm

The co-exist group is incredibly ignorant and disrespectful in the way that they can’t recognise the distinction between Pagans, Catholics, Dualists, Muslims, and Rabbinic Jews.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:07pm

Michael considering what the Muslim Turks did in Europe for 300 hundred years I would not hesitate to call Muslims Turks. Muslims for 300 hundred years before the Crusades oppresed much of Europe as well as North Africa and Jerusalem. The Crusades were multiple attempts to keep Muslims from killing Catholic and Eastern Orthodox pilgrims which happened often.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:08pm

Also most Muslims in Germany at least are Turkish.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:14pm

Michael The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox get killed all over the place in the Orient and Central Asia There are tonnes of Church bombings in Iraq, Eastern Orthodox people in Russia get death threats from Muslims and Croats and Serbs have to deal with all sorts of crap from Bosnians who have this insatiable hate for Serbs.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:22pm

BonChamps don’t let the Devil words of others dissuade you from language.

Valentin
Valentin
Tuesday, June 19, AD 2012 10:25pm

I know we can just change so called “gay rights” on the poster to “irrational pride wants to be cool to”.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 2:51am

Anzlyne wrote “As I understand it, some of the other violence between religious groups and cultural groups is not explained as growing out of their religious beliefs strictly speaking, but arise because of cultural and economic factors; generational traditions even of hate and distrust– And sinfulness all the way around.”

That is certainly true. I was merely arguing that Christians are not exempt from this tendency, which appears to be a perennial temptation. I am often struck by a rather amusing example of the way in which old prejudices mutate to survive. In France, where I spend a lot of time, highly cultured young Catholics including priests and religious, can be found, vicariously repenting the perceived anti-semitism of their forebears, only to indulge in a revamped version of it themselves. For them, Evil is represented by the Unholy Trinity of the United States/Israel/the West, all Virtue being embodied in the “dominated and the oppressed,” of whom the Palestinians have become the emblem. Thus, the old stereotypes are recycled, such as the rich Jew and the dominating Jew, all under a varnish of progressivism. The Jew is once more the stand-in for capitalism, imperialism, cosmopolitanism, indeed the whole economic order they detest.

Art Deco
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 7:00am

In France, where I spend a lot of time, highly cultured young Catholics including priests and religious, can be found, vicariously repenting the perceived anti-semitism of their forebears, only to indulge in a revamped version of it themselves. For them, Evil is represented by the Unholy Trinity of the United States/Israel/the West, all Virtue being embodied in the “dominated and the oppressed

France is France. Even so, I am skeptical. I think if you want to understand a similar phenomenon in this country you might read Thomas Sowell’s Vision of the Anointed or Paul Hollandar’s Political Pilgrims or some of Steven Sailer’s recent writings on “leapfrogging loyalties”. I think if you really got into the foetid space inside their heads, you would discover that Israel-bashers suffer not one whit from religious or cultural anti-Semitism, and that is as true among soi-disant Catholics as any other sort of Israel-basher. Their political commentary is an exercise in self-aggrandizement and their true targets are in their own vicinity, not in the Near East. (This is speculative, of course). It is amusing to watch these shnooks alternate between functional pacifism and advocacy on behalf of one of the more malicious and repulsive particularisms on this planet.

Scott W.
Scott W.
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 9:35am

Well, the message of the original sticker isn’t so much “Coexist” as it is, “Be indifferent”. In other words, it recalls John Lenon’s pile of excrement, “Imagine”.

T. Shaw
T. Shaw
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 10:21am

Kudos to Scott W. My nominee for comment of the day!

Whenever I see that BS (or its execrable cousin: “9/11 Was An Inside Job”), the following silent Tourrettes Syndrome outburst runs through what is left of my brain: “Lump of feces for brains!”

Of course, my brain screams the Anglo-Saxon translation for “feces.”

Foxfier
Admin
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 10:32am

*snort* That ain’t the Church, dude, that’s France (and possibly “Europe”)– and pretty standard leftism.
A good rule of thumb is that if the general population of a country does something, and the Catholic minority also does something, and it’s not part of Catholic doctrine, it’s probably cultural.

I believe the popular working explanation for Europe’s (and our own left-elite) Israel-type-Jew hate is a nasty hangover from the world wars. Israel is pretty muscular, and it’s easier to blame strength for the nastiness than the philosophies that they’re still sympathetic to; thing is you’ve got to be openly muscular and fully first world to “count.”

Joe Green
Joe Green
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 11:37am

Scott, why is it a “pile of excrement” to seek world peace and share with those less fortunate? What’s wrong with this stanza?:

“Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger a brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing for the world”

It’s Lennon, by the way. 2 n’s.

Paul W Primavera
Paul W Primavera
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 11:51am

“John Lennon, most over rated man of the last century.”

100% correct.

Joe Green
Joe Green
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 11:58am

Don, I’d give that title perhaps to Winston Churchill.

If you’re into parody, Elton John, who apparently thought Lennon a hypocrite, wrote this:

Imagine six apartments
It isn’t hard to do
One is full of fur coats
The other’s full of shoes

Joe Green
Joe Green
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 12:42pm

I’d give that title to John Paul II. As for Churchill, still too soon to lift the mythical fog that surrounds him. I know you’re not a fan of Hitchens, who took him down a couple of pegs but still considered him a “great man.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2002/04/hitchens.htm

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 1:54pm

Art Deco & Foxfier

There is something in what you say. Alain Finkielkraut has argued that European unity is constructed around a series of ‘never agains.’ No more war, nor power, nor empire, nor nationalism. Progressive Europe has disavowed its embarrassing past. This makes it ill at ease with a state, Israel, that clings to its borders just as Europe renounces its own, that nurtures its army just as Europe demilitarizes, and that must combat implacable enemies just as Europe denies such things exist

The reason I think there is more to it, where young Catholics are concerned is that, whilst the reasons change, the target is constant. At 67, I am old enough to remember Catholics arguing that the Revolution was a Jewish and Masonic conspiracy against Throne and Altar, that the Dreyfus affair was a plot to discredit the largely Catholic officer corps, that Philippe Pétain (whom they always referred to as “le Maréchal”) saved France from the Jewish-inspired Communists. Now, the politics are different, but the object is still the Jews

Foxfier
Admin
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 2:38pm

Europe doesn’t do Jews- on that, we can agree, by and large.

Foxfier
Admin
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 2:48pm

Or, to call back to the start…they’re threatened by annihilation not only by C* but also by (peace sign)….

Joe Green
Joe Green
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 3:11pm

“His blood be on us, and on our children” – Matthew 27:25, The blood libel was only the beginning.
Here’s what Martin Luther had to say in “The Jews and Their Lies” in 1543:

“What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? . . . . . . I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. . . . . . . Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. . . . . . . Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. . . . . . . . Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ******** Fifth, I advise that safe ¬conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. ********* Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. **********Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Go-yim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.”

Art Deco
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 3:54pm

Now, the politics are different, but the object is still the Jews

No, the object in the one case was the domestic Jewish bourgeoisie, who were something of a social and cultural challenge in certain countries (Poland, Hungary) or occupied neuralgic spots in the social economy (Roumania). The object today is Israel, the inhabitants of which are not peddling psychoanalysis in Budapest or consumer credit in Wilno or renting land outside Koloszvar. Israel is self-confident and butch, and that is an anathema to certain sorts.

Anzlyne
Anzlyne
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 4:44pm

Michael I hear you. I don’t know why they are the target, but it seems to always be so. Perhaps it is just that they are what they have always known themselves to be, a people set apart.
And we, called to holiness, in Christ, are also called to be a people set apart….but lately we Christians are resisting distinction from the rest of the world.

Defend borders (Israel). Blur borders (Europe). Progressive Europe becoming more and more borderless. As Scott says in his comment the COEXIST symbol word is about indifference. No distinction, nod definition, borderless. Progressive Europe is willing to be indiffernt to it’s Christian inheritance. (Indistinct from Turkey).
Europe is disavowing it’s embarrassing past, not seeing the beauty and grace of it’s own growth– being perhaps a bit too much like Luther, losing hope, overwhelmed by depravity.
I hate to hear the dismissive tone against France, the “eldest daughter” of the Church. Like my own prodigal son, she may have left the hearth, but, please God, not for ever. Christian hope does spring eternal in the Catholic breast.

When I listened to John Lennon’s ‘Imagine” years ago I was a bit troubled by the lyrics, but I didn’t want to think about that. I wanted to go along with the wistful ‘can’t everybody just get along” idea behind it. In other Beatles songs, too, there seemed to be the hope that somehow everything would be all right for everybody. That’s why they had a bigger following than the Doors 🙂
Convoluted to be sure, but it seemed there was a kind of Catholic influence on Liverpudlians John and Paul.
They, like me, came out of childhood smack in the middle of the 2oth century, a century when the devil wreaked havoc with mixed messages, even from representatives of the Catholic Church.

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 4:57pm

Paul W. Primavera says:
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 A.D. at 6:21am
Suggestion: make paper copies and put them on the windshields of parked cars which sport the COEXIST number sticker. That’ll get the point across.

Liberal. Progressive. Democrat! That’s what this “COEXIST” is all about.

Paul: I am going to do that. We have one of these whackos with her bumper sticker teaching at our Catholic School.

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, June 20, AD 2012 5:14pm

Don: Thank you for sticking up for Winston Churchill, one of my favorite people.

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