I’m sure many of you will disagree with me, seeing as how this is a mostly conservative blog, but I do not think Paul Ryan won tonight’s debate. In fact, I was disappointed in his overall performance, particularly his weak answers on abortion.
Yes I’m glad he raised the religious liberty issue, but he should have taken a moment to insist that opposition to abortion is rooted in the belief that all innocent human beings, born and unborn, deserve protection under the law. We all know that “life begins at conception.” The question is not when life begins, but when the right to life begins. Ryan’s hands may be tied to a certain extent by Romney’s position, which admits for various exceptions – conditions under which it is ok to butcher an innocent unborn child. Even so, he could have answered much better than he did.
That aside, I believe Biden dominated the debate. I know I am not the only one making this comparison, but it looked like a Thanksgiving dinner. To some it looked like mean old uncle Joe trying to beat up on nephew Paul, who held his own. To others, including myself, it looked like mean but knowledgeable Uncle Joe schooling a somewhat intimidated whippersnapper.
What I think, fortunately, doesn’t matter. Some post-debate polls, such as CNN’s, said Ryan won the debate, while others, such as CBS’s, had Biden winning. It appears that the debate was a tie game, with Biden having met his primary objective and Ryan having (mostly) stood his ground. Perhaps I am more disappointed than most because I expected much more from Ryan. I didn’t expect him to be a foreign policy whiz, but I expected more fight out of him on economic issues and certainly a whole lot more on social issues, particularly abortion.
Maybe he could take lessons from Ron Paul on how to respond next time (if there is a next time, in 2016 perhaps).
He must have missed Rick Santorum’s speeches on the topic. After all, he did endorse Mitt Romney over Rick Santorum in Wisconsin, effectively ending Rick Santorum’s bid for the nomination.
Across the ocean the debate that I watched at 2-3;32 AM lost something in transmission than what I watched. Mr Ryan was credited with winning on style and both were even on points. However, Mr Biden’s 82 interruptions, his smirks and laughing all through showed his character which was not admirable. Mr Ryan never interrupted once, was 100 % in total control of his facts on domestic economic issues and was very astute on the Middle East and Libyan North African mess and danger of spillover. His hands are tied on abortion, but he scored on Mr Biden when he said science and medicine was the reason to oppose abortion and the story of their first-born “bean” daughter was classic Ronald Reagan-style making a point. Your post was quite disappointing, as i saw the interaction in the whole 92 minute debate. Excellent moderator, great fair job.
I felt like the debate was fairly even. Ryan had that priceless zinger in response to the 47%. He clearly outdid Biden during the conversation on social security.
However Biden did a very good job when talking about Afghanistan. He put Ryan in a terrible position of trying to defend staying longer in that mess.
Overall Biden came off as a cranky old man who reminds us all of the overly opinionated uncle no one enjoys being around. I think everyone is really underestimating how much that hurt his overall performance.
As a side note, I felt real sorrow over hearing Biden say his Catholicism “guides” his life and he “accepts” the teachings of the Church on abortion, but then in the same breath go on to vigorously defend it. It’s not a surprise, but just a real sadness that he defends such evil.
I really wish Ryan would of called him out on that more.
I do not know how you could declare Biden the winner when he interupted Ryan 82 times and the moderator interupted him another 32 times. In the real world of debate he would have be disqualified.
Vice President Biden helped his base, but if all you are doing is helping your base you are in trouble. Congressman Ryan sounded articulate and respectful, which is all he needed to do. To a lot of guys VP Biden sounded like the loud mouth at the bar or the football game who guys just detest. To a lot of women VP Biden sounded like a slippery used car salesman, which is not what helps in the polls. CNN polling had Ryan winning the debate and winning the likability portion of the debate by 10%, a very big number when all Congressman Ryan needed to do was sound competent.
Biden’s behavior will hopefully not set a new standard for debate performance. The American voter wants the chance to hear candidate’s policies explained outside the distortion of biased media, spin, and sensational commercials. Biden’s constant laughing, sniping and interruption created a disrespectful and distracting atmosphere, and was, frankly, obnoxious. The moderator is not to be commended either.
Ryan’s problem is that he ALSO doesn’t follow the Church’s teaching on abortion in his public life since the Romney/Ryan ticket accepts abortion in the cases of rape, incest, and when the life of the mother is at risk (i.e. whenever a pro-abortion doctor wants to say she’s at risk, mentally or otherwise). It would be hard to push Biden on the issue because Ryan would slide right down with him on the slippery slope.
“Ryan’s problem is that he ALSO doesn’t follow the Church’s teaching on abortion in his public life”
“A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law already passed or ready to be voted on. Such cases are not infrequent. It is a fact that while in some parts of the world there continue to be campaigns to introduce laws favouring abortion, often supported by powerful international organizations, in other nations-particularly those which have already experienced the bitter fruits of such permissive legislation-there are growing signs of a rethinking in this matter. In a case like the one just mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.”
Pope John Paul II-Gospel of Life
Ryan won on style, substance was fairly even. Biden looked deranged at times. He needs to quit sniffing laughing gas.
I thought Ryan did well on the Abortion question, claiming a pro-life position not only because of his Catholic faith, but also because of reason and science. Biden’s personally pro-life but… position was an offense to anyone with common sense.
I thought Biden was winning the debate for the first hour or so. He came across as rude, but Ryan looked weak in not being able to stand up to him. Eventually, though, I think Biden took it too far, to the point where it seemed like Ryan couldn’t get five words out before Biden would start yelling again. You couldn’t really follow what either of them were saying.
So I think Biden effectively neutralized Ryan, but ended up coming off very badly in the process.
Biden won debate in terms of performance. He had a command not of the facts but of his presentation whereas Ryan appeared far too deferential and wonky which had the effect of making him appear weak. In the end this does nothing for the Obama camp which is now on the defensive after losing significant ground with precious little time before voters minds start to congeal that the only hope is change.
Though the left may have scored an immediate buzz here, give it a few days for it to sink in and I think Ryan will come out on top. It still needs to be digested.
I thought that both of them mugged for the cameras. As for interruptions, I only watched bits of the debate, but there were enough occasions of them talking over each other that I didn’t get a strong sense that either one was more to blame for it.
I was kind of surprised to hear Biden take the “personally opposed” position. It feels like there’s been a change among Catholic Democrats recently toward a “completely support” stance – Nancy Pelosi and Caroline Kennedy come to mind.
Chad,
I think there is another difference between Ryan’s public stance and Biden’s. Biden not only “supports” the Obama Administration’s extreme pro-abort views, it is plain that he “agrees” with those views as a matter of public policy. In contrast, it is reasonably clear that Ryan does not agree with the Romney exceptions, but rather agrees “to” them as a matter of ticket solidarity.
I only watched bits of the debate, but there were enough occasions of them talking over each other that I didn’t get a strong sense that either one was more to blame for it.
You must have watched a very brief amount of the debate then, because Biden was far, far more guilty of interrupting Ryan. In fact, the final tally was 82 interruptions – for a 90 minute debate.
Lessons from Ron Paul would be really useful if Paul Ryan ever wants to raise a whole bunch of money and not win a single primary.
Anybody else catch that “million billion” line from Biden? As far as Biden slip ups go it was nothing but it sure sounded funny live.
I think the thing was pretty close myself. The reason Biden looked like he did well to many people on his side is that they had Obama’s defeat fresh in their mind. It’s like when Cleveland Browns fans see their high school team win and they say “wow, what a great football team.”
the argument that Ryan is equally as bad as Biden on abortion is like saying that “Roe v. Wade” shouldn’t be repealed if the GOP is unable to pass the Human Life Amendment, because states would still be able to keep abortion legal.
not the best analogy i admit but you see what i’m getting at. it’s pointless to go all-or-nothing if it makes you end up with nothing, when you could make more incremental successes and then convince people toward the more absolute stance from there.
I think Biden did great!! He fought in favor of Religious Freedom, Paul didn’t do that, which I honestly didn’t expect neither to do. Ryan killed it with his comment on abortion clause, Rape, incest, and mother’s life in danger as exception to abortion. It is a shame he calls himself Catholic, it is a Shame he calls himself Pro-Life. I don’t care what others might think but this man is just the right man to be Vice President. Nov 2008=Voted Democrat. Nov 2012= voting Democrat!
“It is a shame he calls himself Catholic, it is a Shame he calls himself Pro-Life.”
You attack Ryan for being willing to swallow some exceptions in order to ban all other abortions while giving full-throated support to Biden who supports abortion on demand. Does being a yellow dog Democrat necessitate giving up any semblance of logic?
Yeah, that Biden sure is a model for all Catholics. Oh, sorry, I meant to say he’s a model for all CATHOLICS!!
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=44370
Excuse Donald, first of all you need to respect others opinion. I didn’t come commenting on other people thoughts, I expressed my thought and opinion. And yes I SUPPORT Biden, if you have a problem i don’t care, just like you who support Ryan, I don’t care nor have a problem. We all are free to express our thoughts.
Incase your ears popped while listening to the debate and incase you went blind while reading the transcript of the debate, Biden doesn’t support Abortion at all. He just doesn’t believe in imposing his faith on others, all we as Catholic have left is Pray and advise those we know that are liking or will do it, as long As I have done my part of educating the person of it being a Crime, Sin and awful, I know I have done something good. How other people carry themselves in life and their decisions is between them and God. I know I would never have an abortion. I been marry for a year already and I am only 22 yrs old, Political Scientist student…And I believe firmly in my Faith, I practice my Faith and I respect it, just like I respect other people decisions to do what they choose to. This is why I believe Religion and Government should be two institution that are completely not involved with each other. Separated!
I care about people, I care about my Health and those who can’t afford it. I hope and know for sure, that Obama will be re-elected! I don’t seem to understand how you people are against HHS…Don’t you care about those without Health Insurance…?
I do agree with one thing, neither two would ever do anything for the Catholic Church nor about Abortion. Just like my priority at voting have never been based on Religion but as a student, immigrant to this country, below middle class, and international affair, I know that even if Romney (sorry ass) and Ryan (win…lol) they don’t have any interest not priority in doing anything for overtuning Roe v Wade …
“I think Biden did great!! He fought in favor of Religious Freedom”
Isa,
Would you please mail me whatever it is you’re smoking? It sounds like great stuff.
“Excuse Donald, first of all you need to respect others opinion.”
Opinions first need to be worthy of respect.
“Biden doesn’t support Abortion at all.”
Once again, does being a Yellow Dog Democrat mean that you forego all logic?
“He just doesn’t believe in imposing his faith on others,”
Oh, please. Biden has no problem imposing his beliefs on others in countless areas as his votes in the Senate indicate. Biden voted in favor of a constituional amendment banning abortion in 1982 before it became politically advantageous for him to embrace the pro-abort cause.”
“How other people carry themselves in life and their decisions is between them and God.”
And the million innocent children being aborted each year in this country are of absolutely no concern to you as you cast your votes for pro-aborts.
“I am only 22 yrs old, Political Scientist student”
The term is Political Science.
“I practice my Faith and I respect it, just like I respect other people decisions to do what they choose to.”
I doubt that. For example I assume you would oppose people having the right to murder anyone they choose, or enslaving anyone they wish to. The difference with abortion is that you have had the misfortune to be born into a time where the murder of the unborn is celebrated as a constitutional right and you have bought into this monstrous injustice hook, line and sinker. You are young and I pray that you will one day realize the horror of what you currently support.
“I don’t seem to understand how you people are against HHS”
We are against it because it forces employers to provide “free” contraceptive coverage to employees, even if it is against the conscience of the employers to do so. You say that you are big on people being free to do what they wish to do. Isn’t your support for the HHS Mandate a contradiction of this principle?
“I am only 22 yrs [sic] old, Political Scientist [sic] student”
Reason number 2642 why I didn’t become a professor.
I respect your opinions. And I expect you do the same with my opinions. I am Pro-Life, I am against Abortion and will always be. My question to both you so called Catholic…What if your child or your niece had cancer and you didn’t have insurance, what would you do? Actually It is my concern and it hurts to know that so many women choose to go through this, but I can’t condem them or judge them, all I can do is Pray for that innocent child and that mother and doctor who agree to go with it… God calls us to accept people as they are, not to judge them nor condem them.
As long I live my life in faith and continue to educate those around me and informe them of the harm abortion does, the crime they be committing, I know that I, my self as a Catholic am faithful to my church Doctrine and most importantly to God’s way of living.
No Bonchamps, I am not smoking anything, think you should learn to respect as well. Problem I have always seen from us, Catholics involved in Politics or opinioning about Politics is that most or all are offensive and don’t respect.
I am worthy of respect! but you know what, you being a Grown man in “faith” still have alot to learn from Life and other, I recommend you to read the Bible more…
You apparently don’t read or understand, as I have said already, I am against Abortion. And don’t support it I don’t need people that don’t respect me, to pray for me…on the contrary I will pray for you!!
Like I said, neither Biden nor Ryan will do anything for the Church, it is up to us…Government and Religion shouldn’t be together, this has always been a problem for century…
Regarding HHS: Biden himself said:”With regard to the assault on the Catholic church, let me make it absolutely clear, no religious institution, Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic Social Services, Georgetown Hospital, Mercy Hospital, any hospital, none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact.” ….
I been marry for a year already and I am only 22 yrs old, Political Scientist student
I take it your professors do not deduct points for errors in grammer, spelling, and punctuation.
I care about people, I care about my Health and those who can’t afford it. I hope and know for sure, that Obama will be re-elected! I don’t seem to understand how you people are against HHS…Don’t you care about those without Health Insurance…?
Health is something you have, not something you can ‘afford’. What you purchase is not ‘health’ but the services of a class of practitioners. I do in fact care about the uninsured; I just do not think that the Rube Goldberg scheme dreamed up by the various and sundry factions within the Democratic Congressional Caucus (abetted by the Administration brain trust and various lobbies) does anyone any good (bar those who will receive employment in the various bureaucracies necessary to implement this scheme).
No Bonchamps, I am not smoking anything, think you should learn to respect as well.
You speak and write like this when sober?
Art Deco: does it bother you if I had grammatical errors? If so, take it somewhere else…Why do you care anyways, did it bit your attention on your ass?
I been respectful and only came to give my opinion since I came across this page thinking, Oh its Catholic, great! …. but apparently you y’ll have made me so disappointed, not my faith, but people who represent Catholic… Political analysical exchange of opinion shouldn’t be all about bashing at each other but an exchange of opinion with mutual respect.
If so, take it somewhere else…Why do you care anyways, did it bit your attention on your ass?
Well, you might be more comprehensible if you could write proper English. The exercise might induce you to think more clearly.
“Political science” is a subject taught only in tertiary institutions (though there have been in the past couses in “civics” at the secondary level. Academic subjects in community colleges are mostly filler students have to endure to earn their associate’s in vocational subjects; there are few studying specialized academic programs at that level. So, I take it you are a student at a baccalaureate granting institution. Among my contemporaries (now all in middle age), only about 35% made an attempt at that and many (like Sarah Palin and like Rod Dreher) preferred vocational to academic subjects. Somehow, I suspect if your academic competence is expected to be at least a half-standard deviation above the median among your contemporaries, you could put together a correct and coherent sentence. Worked for my contemporaries.
“I respect your opinions. And I expect you do the same with my opinions.”
No, it really doesn’t work that way. Opinions are entitled to respect entirely based upon their content. Foolish and/or bad opinions are not entitled to any respect.
“I am Pro-Life, I am against Abortion and will always be.”
No you aren’t if you vote for pro-aborts. For example, let us say that we are living 175 years ago and you encounter someone who loudly proclaims he is against slavery and yet you know that he votes for pro-slavery candidates for public office. Wouldn’t you conclude that the alleged opposition to slavery by this man was completely hollow, and that he really is not against slavery?
“What if your child or your niece had cancer and you didn’t have insurance, what would you do?”
Pay for their care of course. Christ admonishes us to help those in need, not to place the duty upon Caesar instead of upon ourselves.
“but I can’t condem them or judge them”
I have been President of the Board for over a decade for a crisis pregnancy center where we help women thinking of abortion. We also have post abortion counseling for women who have gone through abortion. The pro-life movement isn’t about condemning or judging women, but rather it is all about stopping the slaying of unborn children.
“God calls us to accept people as they are, not to judge them nor condem them.”
Actually God calls us to free ourselves from our sins and to believe in Christ. Tolerance of sin is no favor extended to any sinner, including ourselves.
“I know that I, my self as a Catholic am faithful to my church Doctrine and most importantly to God’s way of living.”
Actually in regard to voting for pro-aborts you are not. Here is what the catechism says in regard to abortion and the law:
The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”80
“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”81
Your voting for pro-aborts helps deny the unborn legal protection. What you are doing is not in accord with Catholic teaching.
So you think I don’t speak proper English…lol! You have cause me to laugh so much with your comment about my Institution. So you think Georgetown university is tertiary, well that’s you! But I love it here!!!
“So you think Georgetown university”
That explains it all. Also Isa, Art’s reference to a “tertiary institution” wasn’t a slam but to distinguish colleges and universities from high schools which are secondary institutions.
I can’t believe all these comments. I’m convinced that some people just go through life being mean, disrespectful, and rude just to get ahead but i’ve never had that mentality…
I will pray for you all! Good day.
For your own edification, Isaa, you should be aware that Georgetown is not a faithful Catholic institution. It has not taken the Oath of Fidelity to the Magisterium and is not a credible source of anything that is authentically Catholic.
“I’m convinced that some people just go through life being mean, disrespectful, and rude”
It could be worse Isa. You could have been slain in your mother’s womb as a result of abortion, a much harsher fate surely than merely receiving more truth than you bargained for when you decided to troll a pro-life Catholic site. Next time you feel sorry for yourself think of the unborn children whose lives are being exterminated courtesy of the politicians you vote for.
Isa,
Is you a US citizen?
For Isa, if she’s still reading: When [Supreme court Justice] David Souter sided with the pro-abortion judges in Planned Parenthood vs. Casey, Biden and Rudman met at the train station by chance. Rudman described it this way: “At first, I didn’t see Joe; then I spotted him waving at me from far down the platform,” Rudman later recorded in his memoirs, “Joe had agonized over his vote for David, and I knew how thrilled he must be. We started running through the crowd toward each other, and when we met, we embraced, laughing and crying.” An ecstatic Biden wept tears of joy, telling Rudman over and over: “You were right about him [Souter]! … You were right!” The two men were so jubilant, so giddy-practically dancing-that Rudman said onlookers thought they were crazy: “[B]ut we just kept laughing and yelling and hugging each other because sometimes, there are happy endings.”
I submit VP Biden’s actions indicate he is not personally opposed to abortion.
Where did you get that factitious article, zimbo.com?
T. Shaw if I said I voted 2008 for Obama, does that not make me a US Citizen? Btw why the question…? I assume you though Illegal Immigrant, and if so, what’s to you? Since everyone seems to be assuming and not respecting here in this Religious blog, then I too will treat you as you do to me.
Donald, I don’t feel sorry for myself, I feel sorry for you all! I am too happy of a person and contempt with my life style and faith. It doesn’t matter who wins, in my heart Jesus is the king. And I know I been living my life as a good Catholic, not perfect, because only He is.
I am too happy of a person and contempt with my life style and faith.
Ladies and gentlemen, the future scholars of America.
Ops. Sorry I was on my iphone texting and wasn’t paying much attention on where I was writing what words, if this page or my messages. People make mistakes. Get a grip!
I was telling a friend, priest about this page and meant to send that word in the message…lol!
Yes, that was clearly the only mistake you made, other than the other 230 or so.
If you want to be taken seriously, then yes, you need to be able to express yourself correctly. Everyone makes typos, and we’re not all English majors. However, you have shown almost no ability to write coherently. The fact that this is a blog does not excuse you from the responsibility of writing well. The fact that you claim to be a Political Science Major at a top 20 university is frankly tragic, if the level of your writing is any indication of how you communicate normally.
“Donald, I don’t feel sorry for myself, I feel sorry for you all!”
One of many erroneous opinions that you have Isa.
So you think Georgetown university is tertiary, well that’s you! But I love it here!!!
They must have eliminated the essay since I applied there.