Professor Douglas Kries on Cupich

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Cupich

 

Well, this is interesting.  Professor Douglas Kries at Gonzaga University in Spokane gives his assessment of Bishop Blase Cupich, the Spokane Bishop tapped to head the Chicago Archdiocese:

Bishop White Seminary at Gonzaga, which was nothing short of an extraordinary success story until Cupich became bishop, fell quickly into desuetude after his arrival. Moreover, when Gonzaga University refused to continue club status for Gonzaga’s campus Knights of Columbus council, Cupich, it is widely whispered, told the remaining seminarians not to discuss the matter with the press. It has also been widely reported that Cupich did not want his diocesan priests involved with certain pro-life groups that he considered too strident. Cupich may not even know it, but at the time, students involved with Gonzaga’s Right to Life Club felt abandoned, even though they were not his direct target.

I once wrote to him expressing in particular my concerns about the direction of Gonzaga’s core curriculum. His reply was polite, but he made it quite clear that he had no interest in involving himself in such matters. Gonzaga adopted, and is now planning to implement, a core curriculum that diminishes the number of courses that students take in “Catholic or Christian religion” from three to one.

The formerly required course on the Bible is being eliminated and the course in applied Christianity, which often in practice meant Christian morality, is being changed to world religions. Gonzaga students, many of whom belong to Cupich’s diocese, will soon be devoting only a single semester course in four years of college (3 out of 128 credits, or 2.34 percent) to the study of “the Catholic or Christian religion.”

The local Spokane newspaper describes Cupich as “a moderate who has called for civility in the culture wars,” since he has said that Pope Francis doesn’t want “ideologues.” From what I can tell, the description is inaccurate. Real moderates engage all sides, trying to find common ground, if it is available, that will permit them to advance their principles. By not inserting his office into conflict situations, Cupich has often, whether intentionally or not, quietly ceded much ground to one side, and without advancing his principles. 

To be fair, Cupich was willing to debate publicly a local city councilman about legalization of same-sex marriage. Still, on the whole, the record is hardly a bold one. And one wonders: if he comes across as too timid to be effective in the small, rather polite, and humble diocese of Spokane, what are his chances to be effective in a large, muscular, broad-shouldered place like Chicago?

My advice to Catholics in Chicago? Your new archbishop is a very nice man; he is also very intelligent and talented. I respect him far too much to flatter him, as many of my fellow Spokanites are wont to do. And I refuse to believe that he really thinks that those of you trying to defend and advance the Church in the public forum are just “ideologues.” But he tends to be – to use a polite phrase – “conflict averse.”

Go here to read the rest at The Catholic Thing.  I suspect that the key to understanding Blase Cupich is his obvious belief that it is best if Catholicism comes to terms with the powers that be in secular society and not rock the boat.  The term for this sort of accomodation by Christians and Jews in Islamic cultures is Dhimmi status.  That is precisely the path, whether consciously or unconsciously, the Blase Cupich’ of the Church would lead us down.  A world in which Catholics, if they are well-behaved, can still worship on Sunday, so long as they give up any hope of influencing their societies.  Among the pro-abort, largely Catholic, Democrat political establishment in Chicago, he will be as welcome as a fat bribe to an alderman.

Update:  Three of the comments under the post of Professor Kries are very interesting:

written by Leo James, September 24, 2014

In his first Mass as our new Pastor in Omaha, Father Cupich publicly chastised our teenage daughter for genuflecting,as was her practice, along with many others in our parish, before receiving the Blessed Sacrament. He said loudly so that all in the communion line could hear: “don’t do that in my church again”. We pray that he has reflected on John 12:3 since that time and for those he is called to serve in Chicago.
 *************************
written by Fr. Kloster, September 24, 2014

I know Archbishop Cupich. I first met him in 1991. He is a progressive Catholic. I was pushed over the edge long ago and don’t feel the need to play any nuanced games with anyone no matter what it costs me personally. I don’t like using the secular political titles, because they don’t apply where the Church is concerned. You are either Catholic or somewhat less than Catholic (all the way from missing one doctrine or discipline to being aggressively anti-Catholic). Archbishop Cupich could never be described as a traditional Catholic. I’m trying to be as charitable as possible. I’ve had several face to face conversations with the man, so I know his tendencies well.
 ************************
written by MTF, September 24, 2014

It is bittersweet to see Bishop Cupich appointed to Chicago. Bitter because he sees it as a promotion, when his priests and laity have suffered so much under his leadership. Sweet, because we can all breathe a little easier now, knowing that Our good Lord has come to rescue us from this wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without going into to too much detail, I will say that our holy priests are most likely VERY relieved. (Many of them have admitted in confidence, to many of us lay Catholics that B. Cupich terrifies them. Bishop Cupich has ruled over them with an iron fist, and this is not a secret, my friends (And his mandate to avoid praying in front of PP is only one of many of those examples.) “strike the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter.” We have been in the desert over here in Spokane since he was installed September 3rd, 2010. God has finally delivered us from his hands, though. I’ll be praying for you Chicago- you are gonna need it!! Oh, and one piece of advice for any of you who ever happen to go to him for confession: ask him to turn off his phone BEFORE the sacrament begins. He is on his phone CONSTANTLY,(which is not news to Spokanites), but I was STUNNED to hear text beeps occurring while he was listening to my confession. To this day, I regret not asking him why he would leave his phone on during this holy sacrament.

 

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83 Comments

  1. Donald R McClarey wrote, “I suspect that the key to understanding Blase Cupich is his obvious belief that it is best if Catholicism comes to terms with the powers that be in secular society and not rock the boat.”
    I have always found it ironic that the Catholic Church is so often accused, by Protestants and Secularists alike, of wishing to establish a theocracy, when the vice of her hierarchy in almost all ages has been Erastianism and the desire to be part of a (formal or informal) national establishment.
    Gallicanism, Febronism, Josephism are just so many examples of a perennial tendency.

  2. Faith and reason do not contradict. Science and religion do not contradict. Church and state do not contradict for all are predicated on the Truth and the Way of the Truth.
    .
    Perhaps installment as Bishop of Chicago is a form of exorcism.

  3. Faithful Catholics must keep in mind, that while clergy in your diocese are required to obey their bishop, you are not. When you see a transgression, you are to call him out on it, and continue on the path that you know is correct. We have such a bishop in Pennsylvania, and we still pray each Friday in front of Planned Parenthood despite his public statements that we are somehow bullies for praying-a statement he refuses to withdraw. Carry on Christian soldiers. This is not the first time we have seen clergy of this caliber, and it will not be the last. We are the Church Militant. God bless. ” Who is to save our poor Church? Do not look to your priest. Do not look to your bishop. It is up to the laity to make priests priests, and bishops bishops.” -Venerable Fulton Sheen.

  4. I was a Roman Catholic (college) seminarian from 1972-1975. My very first theology course (taught at the local Jesuit university) was an introductory course. The texts were The Way of All the Earth, Religions of the World, and Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. The point of reading these books, according to the professor, himself a diocesan priest, was to “cross over” into other religious perspectives to enhance our appreciation of our own faith. For a parochial, naive young student, as I was then, this was a daunting challenge and at times an unsettling one. We were told by the upperclassmen that we (the freshmen) were to be “demythologized” and assimilated into the “new theology,” whatever that was. While I don’t disagree with the notion of thinking outside of one’s own box and stepping outside of one’s comfort zone in the pursuit of knowledge, there is a difference between eating at a buffet or merely studying the menu. I understand that the Church wants committed believers and not just catechism-reciting drones. But there has to be a common understanding of what we believe. One cannot treat the world of ideas as all equally valid without the filter of a belief system grounded in one’s own faith. And the idea of getting lost in order to find one’s way home seems superfluous. I know because I spent most of my adult life doing exactly that, thanks to Siddartha. The idea of a Catholic University teaching a catholic worldview may sound like a novel one, but I think it’s worth a try.

  5. This is precisely the type of hierarch who would have been appointed during the unhappy Papacy of Paul VI, with recommendations from the Apostolic Delegate Archbishop Jean Jadot. We all know how that turned out!

  6. It really seems to make very little difference who appoints the bishops, whether they are in the giftof the Holy See, elected by the Cathedral Chapter, as in a number of Austrian, German and Swiss sees, or in consultation with the government. They seem, for the most part, to develop a sort of corporate spirit or ethos.

    Bl John Henry Newman, with his usual sardonic humour, invited his readers to imagine a modern bishop with the historical pretentionsof St Martin or St Ambrose, their claims, their prerogatives and their corresponding acts, or one who recalled to our minds the image of St Basil.

  7. They seem, for the most part, to develop a sort of corporate spirit or ethos.

    Not true. There are manifest differences from diocese to diocese and from one era to another. Boston and Dallas suffered catastrophic misgovernment during the period running from 1969 to 2002 (and for several years thereafter in Dallas). That did not happen elsewhere.

  8. Ezekiel 34:1-10
    .
    34 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord God: Ho, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep? 3 You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fatlings; but you do not feed the sheep. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the crippled you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. 5 So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the wild beasts. 6 My sheep were scattered, they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them.
    .
    7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As I live, says the Lord God, because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd; and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep; 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and put a stop to their feeding the sheep; no longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

  9. How sad that at a time when an archbishop should resoundingly stand up for morality someone like Blase Cupich should be appointed. I do not believe that someone with his attitude, is someone who goes along, to get along. Priests who do not defend the unborn do not defend because they believe in abortion. They do not defend marriage between man and woman, because in their minds same sex marriage is not a big deal. Or a more accurate way to put it is that marriage is not a big deal. Priests whose big issues are injustise (according to them) or the enviorment or those nasty conservatives, or anyone who expresses sexual self control,are really no different than any left leaning social activist. You find as express ed in this article about Cupich, they are heavy handed and have no problem embarassing or coming down heavy on people who dare not to share their viewpoint. Humilating a young girl who knells to receive communion, no problem. He probably dosent like those devout elderly ladies, who say the rosary. Congradulations to our Pope. Another great choice. We must carry on, now more that ever! Be more active and read that Baltimore Catchechism.Start a reading group.

  10. God Help Us! We are back, like a bad dream, in the 70’s, only on steroids. It did not work then, it will not work now. At some point you must speak the Truth! You can not convert people if they do not know what they are converting to. Our Lady of Fatima and Akita predicted these times. Read the Book of Daniel, which Jesus said must be fulfilled. The Mass as Christ intended, a sacrifice for our sins, will disappear, not from without, but from within! It will be replaced with an abomination. Sister Lucia, of Fatima, asked, “Why did Our Lady say, ‘ The Rosary, you will always have.”? Why did she not say, “The Mass you will always have?” We are getting close.

  11. I do not think it prudent to repeat hearsay and gossip about a person selected to lead the Chicago archdiocese.

    for example, the letter about bishop cupich telling a young girl to never kneel for communion again. first, who knows whether the letter writer is even recounting a real event. second, if it were a real event, how do we know the letter writer is getting his or her facts right? third, even if father cupich said such a thing, how do we know it refers to the child deciding to kneel and not to some other gesture of the child?

    seriously, repeating such unverifiable slander is not conducive to growing spiritually.

    even the eye witness testimony of prof. kries must be subjected to the fact that he could have misunderstood or misinterpreted what occurred and he most certainly is not privy to all of the considerations bishop cupich was privy to in making his decisions. it is obvious, also, that prof. kries was casting his interactions with bishop cupich in a very negative manner.

    I do not think it is the purpose of this blog to introduce gossip and possible slander in to the dialogue of the faithful.

  12. Slander! Hearsay! Gossip! Lies! Misinterpretations! I think you meant libel.
    .

    Richard Fernandez: “It is impossible to understand the politics of the Left without grasping that it is all about deniable intimidation.”
    .

    Thanks for the afternoon’s dose, eddie too.
    .

    People will judge Cuppie by his actions, not his talk or writings.
    .

    And, we evil, crazy people don’t get it. Cuppie is a prince of the Church. He can makes changes and push his agenda which is oh-so-inclusive. He’s inclusive except for evil, crazy people that disagree.

  13. “I do not think it is the purpose of this blog to introduce gossip and possible slander in to the dialogue of the faithful.”

    Please. This is not a court of law where facts must meet the rules of evidence. We report the statements made by other individuals and people can accept or reject the accounts as they please. I would say that far more harm has occurred in the history of the Church from people holding their tongues and pens in regard to powerful clerics out of fear of giving scandal than people giving vent to statements of grievances. We live in an age of instant communication and there is no putting that genie back in the bottle, and I am not going to report only statements which would pass muster under the arcane rules of evidence that I live by when I appear in court.

  14. I do not think it prudent to repeat hearsay and gossip about a person selected to lead the Chicago archdiocese.

    I’ve noticed over the years that some people favor pluperfect poses when they do not want people they favor criticized or regarded as accountable. (My favorite example was given some years ago by a professor at Wheaton College, who went into a state of contrived high dudgeon when it was pointed out that a friend of his on the faculty who had resigned under a cloud had given an account of his conduct that did not pass a smell test. I stopped taking Prof. High Dudgeon seriously then and there).

  15. “Don’t rock the boat” is how our bishops brought us Sen. Ted Kennedy, abortion on demand, the Welfare State, Obamacara, and USCCB funding for anti-Catholic groups. Sins of omission and commission.

    Once upon a time there was a Jesuit school whose champion basketball team was busted for cheating. The college head shut the program down. This is a useful lesson for our bishops and their USCCB.

    P.S. Has Pope Francis suppressed the Jesuits yet?

  16. *perks up* Maybe this will mean that my folks’ parish will get someone that doesn’t think the Sunday before Christmas is the time to have his dad give the homily to raise funds for illegal aliens.

    It was bad enough being the test drive parish, but this guy managed to drive my mom out of attending because there’s so little Catholicism involved, and even the guys whose English was so bad that I couldn’t understand it didn’t manage that.

  17. Alright, this is kinda ironic– eddie, you may be guilty of rash judgement in your assumption of the moral failings of others without sufficient foundation– that the information above causes unjust harm to the reputation of the Bishop.
    .
    “It was widely whispered” is a traditional way of sharing important information that, if you identified the sources specifically, you’d cause them trouble. The specific claims can be checked.
    .
    To declare that it is gossip is to poison the well– you’ve either got to show it’s false, it’s needless, or that it’s unjust.

  18. Perhaps, the episode of the girl occurred on a Sunday. In that case, maybe Fr Cupich (as he then was) is zealous for Holy Tradition and wishes to restore primitive practice.
    According to Tertullian, “On the Lord’s Day (i.e. Sunday) we consider it improper to fast or to kneel; and we also enjoy this freedom from Pascha until Pentecost” (On the Crown, ch. 3). The Apostolic Constitutions are to the same effect (Book II, Ch. 59)
    St Basil, too, says, “”We stand up when praying on the first of the week…” (Canon XCI of St. Basil the Great)
    Then, we have the 20th Canon of the First Council of Nicea, “Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.”
    Likewise, we have the 90th canon of the Council in Trullo, held in conjunction with the Sixth Ecumenical Council, “”We have received it canonical from our God-bearing Fathers not to bend the knee on Sundays when honouring the resurrection of Christ…”
    It may be so, in which case, Traditionalists should applaud him.

  19. The problem, as I understand it, is that those prescriptions on kneeling were in effect at a time when faith in the real presence and reverence at Mass were not issues. Kneeling and genuflecting was brought in at the Council of Trent precisely because the Real Presence was under attack by the Reformation. Query: Are Catholics today more, or less aware of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

  20. I was raised prior to Vatican II. The normal recipient of Holy Communion left his pew. walked to the communion rail and knelt. He did not genuflect. What? You say there is NO communion rail? Well, then find a real Catholic church that has one.

  21. Complaints about a Bishop should go to the Pope. Has anyone thought to do this. Please don’t say that Francis will not do anything. There are a lot of complaints here about this Bishop. We in the archdiocese did complain and did a lot more as well regarding Archbishop Favalora. We even wrote a lengthy report and sent it to Rome. If you have already done it then do it again. There probably is a lot more to this story on him than has been told. God bless him.

  22. “In that case, maybe Fr Cupich (as he then was) is zealous for Holy Tradition and wishes to restore primitive practice.”

    I am morally certain that the principle of charitable interpretation doesn’t require me to enter the realm of hallucinatory fantasy.

  23. Please don’t say that Francis will not do anything.

    He’ll do something. He’ll cold call a divorcee in Cicero and tell her she and her common law should feel welcome to take communion and he’ll remind Bp. Cupich to see to it that that oratory where the Latin Mass is offered is closed and the priest who offers it shut up in some Dominican priory while chancery press agents drop hints he’s a pederast who stole from the collection plate.

  24. Has anyone thought to do this.

    Of those few who have been taught that one is supposed to? Probably, yes– and a lot more have probably sent in letters praising the same things. It was a different Bishop at the time, but when I was a teen the only time I heard of official pressure coming down was when a priest mentioned that divorce is against the Church’s teachings. (Never heard anything about abortion at all.)

    On what do you base your idea that something will be done?

  25. I asked all Catholics who do not attend the EF of the mass, please do so. You will see and hear major differences between the OF and the EF. Not only in the rubrics of the mass, but also in the sermons. Our pastor tackles issues, such as homosexuality, same-sex marriage, abortion, issues you will rarely hear from the pulpits of the Novus Ordo. I am a pre-Vatican person, and I will never, ever attend a Novus Ordo mass.
    Vatican II has caused disastrous results, and the Vatican continues on a course of destruction. I will have no part of it.

  26. Our current parish– when I can actually hear what the Father is saying, kids and all mean we’re in the crying room a lot– does just fine on actually teaching, and they’ve done great things on out-reach to fallen away Catholics.
    It’s not Vatican II that’s the problem, it’s all the junk that people brought in as the “spirit” of Vatican II; a lot of the falsehoods that were spread can be countered, now.
    On websites like this, and Catholic answers, and by EWTN.

  27. Mr. DeCarlo,

    The Second Vatican Council defined no Catholic doctrine or dogma. It was a series of documents that was supposed to open the windows. The modernists who lurked under the surface, including Bugnini – the architect of the Novus Ordo, used the opportunity of a weak willed Pope to do whatever they wanted. Much garbage has been foistered on the faithful for decades in the name of the Second Vatican Council. The biggest error was to suppress the Tridentine Mass.

    We have had in the Church in the West a hierarchy that pays lip service to V2 and treats it as if it was the creation of a new Church. Things will not change until the laity are angry enough that the bishops have no choice but to listen.

    Arrogance reigns supreme. Bishop Cupich comes off as arrogant. Cardinal Mahony was supremely arrogant.

  28. Argentina has already given the world Evita Peron; she pretended to love the poor so persuasively that Argentina loved her unreservedly for fifty years. Now Argentina gives the world Evita in a white mitre. Pope Francis is too old like Evita was too young to really change anything but he talks the talk of humility and service charmingly. His appointments of bishops show that he has no fight or no grasp of the pastoral burdens of the Church earlier popes had barely saved from his sort of vacuous theologically indifferent populism.

  29. William e Bauer wrote, “What? You say there is NO communion rail? Well, then find a real Catholic church that has one.”

    Many French churches have never had a communion rail; they have a rood screen, dividing the chancel from the nave. Here is a particularly fine example from Kerfons in Brittany, dating from the 13th century.

    http://tinyurl.com/ouv52ka

    In larger churches, it often supports the organ and choir loft.

    Communicants, who were able to do so, tended to kneel in the doorway to take the sacrament; the elderly or infirm stood.

    Open sanctuaries and communion rails were all but unknown before the 17th century and represented a departure from the traditions of both East and West.

  30. c matt, Art Deco and Dale Price

    No doubt, you are right. But it does show how selective soi-disant Traditionalists are in the traditions they favour and those they do not. They blithely dismiss the tradition that forbids kneeling on Sundays, attested by the Fathers of East and West since the 2nd century, but desiderate communion rails that are an innovation of the 17th. One suspects their criterion is personal taste and nothing else.

  31. MPS,

    Your recent tone has been somewhat critical of us who favor Tradition. Not all of us have the opportunity to study the history of the Mass in each country from two or three centuries back. We have our recent history to draw on – a history of trashing the statues, ripping out the communion rails which WERE a part of Catholic life in the United States, installing ugly stained glass with no religious aspect, the trashing of main altars and replacing them with chairs, ditching the choir loft with a bunch of people singing Haugen-Haas-Schutte-St. Louis Jesuits to guitars and tamborines in an area that had been a side altar – and being expected to sing an
    -entrance hymn
    -the Gloria
    -the responsorial psalm
    -the Alleluia before and after the Gospel
    -an offertory hymn
    -the Mystery of Faith
    -the Our Father
    -the Agnus Dei
    -the Communion hymn (in some places, standing and singing the whole time when Communion is best spent in prayer),
    -and the exit hymn, which is inferior to the Last Gospel.

    I like things the way they are at Holy Wisdom Parish Latin Mass Community. I actually like the High Mass better but the time tends to be inconvenient.

  32. The democratic stronghold (pronounced stranglehold) on Chicago deserves nothing less than an appropriate shepherd of the same cloth. Spirits of a feather bed together. The thrill of sheer power and control give some men the feeling of near immortality. United they will fall.

  33. Penquins fan. I know that no new doctrines were defined, but what Vatican II was to never mention some of the past infallible doctrines, or just don’t pay attention to them. One is “no salvation outside the church”. Is that still in force? I’ve never heard a pope or cleric utter that infallible doctrine. Have you ever heard a pope or priest utter the words that Jesus said to the Jews, ” If you don’t believe that I am He, you will die in your own sins.” Or, Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who don’t believe are already condemned.” Do you think that the pope would utter those words to Jews during a inter-religious conference? No, no new doctrines were established, but they just utter the positive quotes from Jesus, not the negative quotes.

  34. Mr. DiCarlo,

    The big thing is ecumenism and unity. The Catholic hierarchy has dumbed down Catholic teaching, ostensibly to achieve unity with Protestants. It has failed in a spectacular fashion. But, just like the Democrats, they will not face up to the fact that they have been WRONG.

    Protestants went from heretics to be “separated brethren”. Many Protestants still think Catholics worship idols. Orthodox went from schismatics to “a sister church” Most Orthodox still think Catholics left apostolic Christianity. Muslims went from heretics to “brothers in God”.

    I stand in no judgment of the people of any of those religious bodies but I refuse to accept their beliefs as equal to my own.

    Look, I don’t like what V2 did to the Church. None of it was doctrine or dogma and none of it was needed. the Missal of 1962 should have been used in the vernacular at least in part for those who wanted it and that should have been it. My two sons will learn the Baltimore Catechism, make their first Communion on the tounge kneeling and will NOT sing those dippy songs I sang back in 1972.

  35. Joe De Carlo

    On the doctrine, “Extra ecclesiam nula salus,” Bl John Henry Newman writing in 1875, explained, “One of the most remarkable instances of what I am insisting on is found in a dogma, which no Catholic can ever think of disputing, viz., that “Out of the Church, and out of the faith, is no salvation.” Not to go to Scripture, it is the doctrine of St. Ignatius, St. Irenæus, St. Cyprian in the first three centuries, as of St. Augustine and his contemporaries in the fourth and fifth. It can never be other than an elementary truth of Christianity; and the present Pope has proclaimed it as all Popes, doctors, and bishops before him. But that truth has two aspects, according as the force of the negative falls upon the “Church” or upon the “salvation.” The main sense is, that there is no other communion or so called Church, but the Catholic, in which are stored the promises, the sacraments, and other means of salvation; the other and derived sense is, that no one can be saved who is not in that one and only Church. But it does not follow, because there is no Church but one, which has the Evangelical gifts and privileges to bestow, that therefore no one can be saved without the intervention of that one Church” and goes on to note the doctrine of invincible ignorance and that “it is possible to belong to the soul of the Church without belonging to the body.”

  36. Joe D.
    Extra ecclesiam nulla salus most assuredly HAS been taught, even if it hasn’t been as loud or in the manner you’d prefer; I’m not surprised that priests don’t try to fit a complicated teaching in enough detail to use the phrase.
    I don’t think the Pope would go to a conference and say what you put there because he’s not an idiot, nor is he maliciously trying to drive them away– and using the truth to drive folks away from the Truth is perverse. There’s no way that they’d be shocked into rethinking, as was the case when the Lord was speaking.
    Being too harsh is just as bad as being too gentle.
    Good grief, the “Catholics Come Home” program is built around this teaching.
    ******
    Vatican II didn’t bring out any rot that wasn’t already there– it just made it so we could see the rot. If the method of teaching had been up to snuff before, then the lay would’ve known where to look for the actual teachings. If the priests had been trained right, the outbreak of “spirit of” junk wouldn’t have happened.
    I do know that when my mom was a kid, there were serious rumors among Protestants that the Catholics were gathering weapons in the basement of the local church, but now I trade prayer requests with some of those same “pray to idols” folks, and know there’s a movement of respect for Our Lady among them, driven in part by Catholics being able to get the idea across that asking her to pray for them is no different an asking (protestant that posed the question) to pray for them.
    *****
    They are heretics, but they are also our brothers and sisters. Only one of those things can change, and hopefully will.

  37. foxflier I am old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II days. I attended Catholic schools in the 50’s and 60’s. We were taught that no one except Catholics could get to heaven. We were not allowed in a protestant church. I do agree that no salvation outside the church does include Protestants, because the infallible doctrine”no salvation outside the church” was instituted in the 1100’s when the Catholic church was the only Christian church.
    Jesus had no problem telling the Jews that they had to believe he was the Messiah, or that no one could be saved unless they were baptized and believed. Now, I know there are people who do not know the teachings of the church. Of course, they are exempt. Isn’t the clergy supposed to teach what Jesus taught? This problem was cause by ecumenism.
    There was no reason for Vatican II, unless you are a modernists, who have been trying to infiltrate the church for many, many years. Pope Pius X had a few encyclicals denouncing modernism. He even had the clergy sign a pledge against it.
    But, with the election of Pope John XXIII, the modernists have taken the reigns, and as Pope Pius X predicted, the church has has seen a steady decline. We went from full churches, full seminaries and convents, full Catholic schools, long lines at confession, sermons by priests who did not care about political correctness, and half of Catholics being cafeteria Catholics.
    A woman told Pope Benedict that she wanted to become a Catholic. He told her just to be a good ( I forget her Christian denomination) protestant. They would had never happened pre-Vatican II. Pope Francis said that seeking people to convert to Catholicism was nonsense. I won’t see it, because I’m too old, but we will see a revival of the Catholic church, maybe, not the way it was pre-VII. The EF mass draws many, many people to it, including the young.

  38. Joe D.- Make sure you don’t turn yourself into the elder brother, throwing a fit when his presumed dead brother is welcomed home, instead of being browbeaten and grudgingly accepted.
    Incidentally, you didn’t answer any of my points other than seeming to over-simplify a rather more complicated teaching, and generally repeating yourself.

  39. Why doesn’t the pope tell non-Christians that they cannot be saved unless they take Jesus as their savior? Isn’t the pope and the rest of the clerics supposed to teach what Jesus taught? I will tell you why, because since Vat.II, the popes have been nothing but mush-mouths with no backbone.

  40. The pope would be an idiot for quoting the teachings of Jesus? There must have been many idiot priests before Vatican II, because I had heard many times the quotes that I posted previously. The idiots came to power in 1958. You can see what happened to the Catholic church.

  41. Vatican II didn’t bring out any rot that wasn’t already there– it just made it so we could see the rot.

    I cannot figure how you came to that conclusion.

  42. Vat.II brought out the rot? What rot? The rot started after Vatican II. I can’t believe that the backers of Vatican II don’t see what happened to the church the past 50 yrs. The church just continues on the same disastrous path.The church was vibrant before Vatican II.

  43. Art-
    because the people who taught– or mostly failed to teach– me and my generation were pre-Vatican II. The uncles and aunts who assure me of various contradictory to binding teachings things went to Catholic school, taught by those in place since before Vatican II.
    ***
    Joe D-
    The pope would be an idiot for quoting the teachings of Jesus?
    If he did it after inviting people to a supposedly polite discussion of common ground?
    If he used the words of Jesus to beat people away from Christ? He’d not only be an idiot, if he did it willfully, he’d be quite sinful.
    You might benefit from reading the guy here who says that someone who is not even baptized can be held “before” some of those who are baptized and seeing if he, too, is a mush-mouth with no backbone….

  44. Foxflier, keep believing what you believe as the church crumbles before you eyes. Wakeup, don’t you see where the church is headed with this Vatican crowd?

  45. joe DeCarlo wrote, “Why doesn’t the pope tell non-Christians that they cannot be saved unless they take Jesus as their savior?”
    Because the Pope is not a heretic.,like Fr Feeney and his followers.
    Bl Pius IX affirmed the teaching of the ordinary universal magisterium of the Catholic Church, when he wrote to the bishops of Italy on 10 August 1863,
    “We and you know, that those who lie under invincible ignorance as regards our most Holy Religion, and who, diligently observing the natural law and its precepts, which are engraven by God on the hearts of all, and prepared to obey God, lead a good and upright life, are able, by the operation of the power of divine light and grace, to obtain eternal life.”
    As Bl John Henry Newman remarks, “Who would at first sight gather from the wording of so forcible a universal, [Extra ecclesiam nulla salus] that an exception to its operation, such as this, so distinct, and, for what we know, so very wide, was consistent with holding it?”

  46. Joe D-
    You still aren’t responding to any of the actual points.
    ***
    A quote from Fulton Sheen:
    the tensions that developed after the Council are not surprising to those who know the whole history of the Church. It is a historical fact that whenever there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit as in a general council of the Church, there is always an extra show of force by the anti-Spirit or the demonic. Even at the beginning, immediately after Pentecost and the descent of the Spirit upon the apostles, there began a persecution and the murder of Stephen. If a general council did not provoke the spirit of turbulence, one might almost doubt the operation of the third Person of the Trinity over the assembly. (pp. 292–293) Treasure in Clay

  47. Father Feeney taught what was taught since the Council of Trent. Don’t forget, it was the Jesuits who called Father Feeney a heretic.,(if any group are heretics, it is the Jesuits, and take a look at the Jesuit colleges and see what they teach. My son went to a Jesuit college, and a Jesuit priest told him the Resurrection was a myth. Now, who is the heretic.
    I notice that the Novus Ordo crowd not only pick and choose what they want to believe, they also pick and choose what quotes from Jesus they want to proclaim.

  48. Before all of the clamor about what Father Feeney taught, the Superior of the Jesuits called Father Feeney the greatest theologian in the USA.
    Read two books entitled “The Loyolas and the Cabots” and “Gates of Heaven” written by Catherine Goddard Clarke. Read how Father Feeney was railroaded by the Jesuits.

  49. Argument ad hominem– a form of rash judgement.
    Some Jesuits are heretics; that has no bearing on if they are accurate or not in pointing out heresy in another, nor does it justify judging another member of the group to have moral fault.
    ***
    You might want to check out chapter four of Mathew. It’s not only possible to quote holy words to evil effect, it was tried out on Jesus.

  50. Foxflier, You seem to be in denial about how the Catholic church since Vatican II has been going downhill steadily.
    The quotes that you say would be Idiotic for the pope to quote were quoted extensively by popes and clerics pre-vatican II. I don’t remember people leaving the church because of these quotes. The churches were full every Sunday.
    Now, since these quotes, which I guess, would be considered politically incorrect, loads and loads have people have left the church.
    Was Jesus an idiot when he said to the Jews, “If you don’t believe that I am the Messiah you will die in your sins?” Didn’t Jesus say go forth and preach to all nations? I didn’t hear him say, make sure that you are politically correct when you quote me

  51. Joe,

    I am not crazy about the Novus Ordo Mass, but I do not criticize those who attend it. Many have no other option available to them. Abuses in the celebration of the Mass are the result of poor priestly formation, “liturgical committees”, bishops who are too weak or too uncaring, among others.

    The “modernizers” who conducted V2 and those who immediately followed them were all brought up with the Tridentine Mass, the Rosary, the other devotions, meatless Fridays and the old Catechism. Foxfier is correct. The “rot” was there, waiting to surface.

    I occasionally read the Remnant. It is free for the taking after Mass once a month.
    It has a lot of insight. However, the tone of the publication is always angry – angry at the “Novus Ordo crowd”, angry at Pope John Paul II, angry at this apologist (e.g., Karl Keating) or that writer (e.g. Fr. John Trugilio). Angry and bitter is no way to go through life, although it is providing chief crank Chris Ferrara with a living. The point the Remnant has made is that V2 had certain influential German speaking bishops who pushed things the way they wanted – and the same thing is happening now (Kasper and the other German bishops who want to give Communion to civilly divorced and remarried Catholics). Trad critics of JPII likely did not live through the hell he lived through in Nazi occupied and Communist dominated Poland. It’s easy to point fingers.

    One has to hang in there and pass the Faith on to one’s children. It isn’t the Vale of Tears for nothing.

  52. I’m not much of a Church historian, and even I know that a lot of heretics start out as really, really good theologians. You may as well try to argue that someone can’t possibly be a murderer because he was first recognized as a first-rate surgeon.
    ***
    Reading this:
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT
    Makes it pretty clear why you’re not responding to points actually made. It would require explaining away teachings that go back to the very founding of the Church, rather than just mangling Trent:
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

  53. Joe D, will you please bother to actually respond to what I said? You’re repeating yourself, ignoring my arguments and appealing to personal experience over everything else– while ignoring any other personal experiences.

  54. Penquin, I agree that the Novus Ordo mass is as vaild and the EF mass. I find the mass very much like a Protestant service. The Catholic church lost its identity with the Novus Ordo.
    Secondly, what rot was in the church pre-Vatican II? I find much rot in the church with clerics who pick and choose what they believe and what they want to preach. I find homosexual priests part of that rot. I find rot in many Catholic colleges who won’t teach the truths of the church if they don’t agree with them. The Jesuits college are know for this. My son went to St. Joseph U., a Jesuit college in Phila. and he couldn’t believe that they were teaching in religion classes. Please tell the rot that was in the church before Vatican II

  55. Foxflier, I am repeating myself, because what I’ve said it the root of the problem in the church. Get to the roots of the problem before you can solve them. The root problem was and is Vatican II.

  56. I quote Jesus again. If you don’t believe that I am He, you will die in your own sins. I guess that makes me a heretic.
    Boys and girls, I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. I am going to leave at that.

  57. Penquin, rec. The Remnant too. They are a bunch of complainers, but it is a very good publication. Try “Catholic Family News” which another Traditional publication.

  58. joe DeCarlo on Sunday, September 28, A.D. 2014 at 11:02am (Edit)
    Foxflier, I can’t remember what you wrote.



    *looks up at the whole thing, laid out very neatly for when someone forgets a thing*
    It’s the stuff next to my name, Foxfier.

    Makes it pretty clear what kind of person you are, I suppose.
    *****
    Penguins Fan-
    thank you for joining in.

  59. Foxfier,

    You’re welcome.

    Father Z often points out that traditional Catholics are often their own worst enemies. It is true that much of the Church hierarchy treats anyone with an attraction to the Extraordinary Form as the Old Testament Jews considered Gentiles. This will not pass anytime soon.

    What we are dealing with now if a Pontiff who has an extremely limited worldview. He knows his own background in his own country and little else and has surrounded himself with people he considers to be like-minded. He comes from an order that is increasingly at variance with actual Catholic teaching and from a country that has constant economic problems. Argentina has a population roughly equal to Canada but its economic output is a fraction of Canada’s output.

    World War I had a huge impact on the Catholic Church. Argentina played no role in it. Argentina’s role in WWII was to provide a safe haven for escaping Germans and some Italians. Argentina had no role in the Cold War and is a non factor in the struggle the world finds itself in with Islam. Argentina has had a succession of “leaders” who blame the USA for their problems.

    We had, in some prior two popes, men who knew of the importance of the US.
    Cardinal Pacelli traveled extensively, spent time in the US and spoke English. Cardinal Wojtyla traveled here and spoke English and had the appreication of the USA that was once very common among the Polish people. Cardinal Ratzinger was grateful for the Allies defeating Nazi Germany, among other things. The current Pontiff has no such background. He is listening to American hierarchy who are telling him to appoint bishops who are nothing like Cardinal Burke.

    All we can do is tough it out.

  60. All we can do is tough it out.

    Well, and try to do damage control– in the Naval sense, as far as I’m concerned. *grin*
    Thanks to the internet, there are a lot more resources for building up the parts that are sound, pumping out water, putting down fire retardant foam and generally keeping the ship afloat.

  61. Penquin, I agree with all of your post, except the last sentence. Pope francis does not need the American bishops to tell him who to appoint. The pope is an outright modernist who will put more modernists into key positions.
    These modernists are continuing on the same path, that is the Vatican II path. They are no different than any other naive liberal. The modernists wanted to bring the church into the modern world and they still insist this is the right path. I don’t see this modern world on the right path. I see it as the path of total destruction.

  62. Very interesting discussion. I would point out that failures in methods of teaching and in faith formation has been very frequent in the history of the Church. Apathetic and under educated and even mis-directed Catholics have never been uncommon. Remember the state of catechesis in France, in Ars -after the French revolution and the attacks on the Catholic culture.
    The state we are in today can’t be blamed on the CCD teachers, and it didn’t start with Vatican II. After Mass this morning an older parishioner expressed to me his sorrow over his grown family’s lack of faith… he said ” I sent them to Catholic school all the way through and I always tried to be a good example”. He is a very devout man and I tried to reassure him that he had in fact been a good example, but the operative word to people is “choice”. And his kids are making their choices daily. The” rot” comes there– when people choose not to go to Mass, not to pray, not to seek the Lord.
    People individually choose the way they will go and the large numbers of people making choices away from Truth today have to do with lots of self seeking in cultural and religious trends, within and without the Church.
    During the time the Church has been suffering loss in faithful practice of the Faith, Lutheran churches/ denoms/synods now number about 35 or 40 in North America. Episopalian churches are struggling to find their people and their identity. We no longer identify as a Christian nation– some say that at least in the west we are post Christian.
    The modernists efforts to change Church practice and teachings is more than a century + old. It would be silly to say that nothing has been lost since Vat II but Vat II might not so much have been a cause, as a symptom.

  63. joe DeCarlo wrote, “Father Feeney taught what was taught since the Council of Trent. “
    The fact remains that a directly contrary opinion was expressed by Bl Pius IX, a century before VII and Bl John Henry Newman showed how this is to be harmonized with the traditional teaching (which he affirms) of no salvation outwith the Church.
    In his “Belief of Catholics”, written in 1927, Mgr Ronald Knox follows Newman’s opinion, “Let it be understood from the outset that there is one sense in which this principle is literally true, admitting of no qualifications. Catholics believe that there is no other religious body in the world through which salvation can be procured. The fact of membership in any other religious body than ours will not contribute to any man’s welfare in eternity.”
    It would be easy to multiply examples.
    Taking proof texts from Scripture, without regard to the context in which they were spoken is the device of every heretic that ever lived. Consider to whom our Lord’s remarks were addressed and in what circumstances.

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