While the US debates the issue of torture against captured terrorists a decade ago, four new young Christian martyrs were created:
‘They [ISIS] said, “Say the words.” They [the children] said, “No, we can’t”.
‘They chopped all their heads off. How do you respond to that? You just cry.
Go here to read the rest. Never fear, however, these young martyrs will be avenged:
Yep, the murderers of Isis will be talked to death. I wish people at the helm of Church and State had a hundredth of the fortitude of those murdered kids. We are led by fools, and worse.
If the heroic actions of the newly made martyrs teach us anything at all, it is death before blasphemy.
In their faith lives hope for mankind.
God is not with the violent.
Revelation 5
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9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up.
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God’s mercy for His holy innocents will be God’s justice on Islamists, liberal clerics and cowardly politicians alike. It ain’t a’gonna be pretty but it will be very Old Testament.
What incredible courage.
Francis said justice without revenge? What a duplicitous man. Such blindness is incredible.
Violence is not all physical, Mr. Maguire. Ask Francis, his violence is so clear.
Karl
ISIS Tortures Christians in Churches, Photos Show Men Being Whipped for Drinking Wine
see http://www.aina.org/news/20141214184134.htm
Can we really be sure that the evangelisation of such people as ISIS is impossible?
As St Augustine, the Doctor of Grace, reminds us, “Since, then, people are brought to faith in such different ways, and the same thing spoken in one way has power to move and has no such power when spoken in another way, or may move one man and not another, who would dare to affirm that God has no method of calling whereby even Esau might have applied his mind and yoked his will to the faith in which Jacob was justified?
But if the obstinacy of the will can be such that the mind’s aversion from all modes of calling becomes hardened, the question is whether that very hardening does not come from some divine penalty, as if God abandons a man by not calling him in the way in which he might be moved to faith. Who would dare to affirm that the Omnipotent lacked a method of persuading even Esau to believe?”
Evangelizing them is not the issue MPS, although I would say that regions controlled by Islamic governments have proven quite resistant to evangelization historically. What I want the West to do is to make certain that they are driven from power and rendered unable to make any more Christian martyrs. I also want the leaders of both Church and State to recognize the immorality, and imbecility, of even considering diplomacy with such groups.
I am reminded of the fable of the scorpion and the frog: Islam is a fraud, a cobbled together teaching, designed to bring warring tribes together. Its explosive expansion was caused by little more than violence and avarice. The shock the West displays demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of history.
Donald R McClarey wrote, “regions controlled by Islamic governments have proven quite resistant to evangelization historically.”
Efforts at evangelisation were very limited in those regions controlled by European governments.
What missionary efforts were made in the Caucuses and Central Asia, long controlled by Russia, in British India, in the Dutch East Indies, in Egypt and the Sudan, when they were, effectively, British protectorates, in French Algeria, in the protectorates of Tunisia and Morocco or in the many, mainly British and French colonies in Sub-Saharan Africa with substantial Muslim populations?
There was a time when 90% of the world’s Muslims were living under European rule.
Most Islamic regions, especially Arab regions, spent a brief time under European rule. Missionary efforts during that time period were usually met by riots, murder and insurrections.
Before we get to the Nobel Peace, we must take up armed force to vindicate the innocent, especially the minor children who have had their lives taken from them; we must take up armed force to defend ourselves and our posterity against murder; we must take up armed force against injustice; we must take up armed force against evil.
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Someone once told me that if I was raped I ought to lay there and take it, as it is God’s will. Those who violate God’s will and break the Fifth Commandment must be brought to Justice for the salvation of their soul. Jesus, on the cross, did not countenance the bad thief, nor did Jesus countenance the evil high priests who sued for His crucifixion , nor did Jesus countenance His betrayer, Judas Iscariot. Jesus sent Judas on his way: “Go, do what you are about doing, and quickly.”
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Maguire does not have the authentic power to lay down other peoples’ lives, especially the children’s lives. The children’s lives are not hers. If Maguire chooses to countenance evil without armed force, she is more than welcome.
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To remove the just war theory from the Fifth Commandment will also remove the Constitution of the United States of American, wherein the purpose inscribed into the Preamble, is to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity. Being slaughtered is not a “Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity”, nor is death God’s will for His children. Being slaughtered scandalizes the innocent souls of the victims and Isis deserves a great millstone about their necks for doing so.
Michael Paterson-Seymour: “Can we really be sure that the evangelisation of such people as ISIS is impossible?
As St Augustine, the Doctor of Grace, reminds us, “Since, then, people are brought to faith in such different ways, and the same thing spoken in one way has power to move and has no such power when spoken in another way, or may move one man and not another, who would dare to affirm that God has no method of calling whereby even Esau might have applied his mind and yoked his will to the faith in which Jacob was justified?
But if the obstinacy of the will can be such that the mind’s aversion from all modes of calling becomes hardened, the question is whether that very hardening does not come from some divine penalty, as if God abandons a man by not calling him in the way in which he might be moved to faith. Who would dare to affirm that the Omnipotent lacked a method of persuading even Esau to believe?””
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While this passage bears a close resemblance to predestination, it truthfully expresses God’s determination to respect the free will in man and to await man’s “fiat” to do His will. God let Esau to his own free will which Esau had abused, and Esau had to live with his own abuse.
While there have been SOME converts from Islam to Christianity, it is evident that ISIS is satanically inspired and directed. This force of evil can be battled “justly” if only we have the leadership willing to do so. “Making nice” w/ ISIS is tantamount to negotiating w/ the devil.
. The new pacifism of the Papacy is subconsciously an effort to remake the Church’s image as the non-inquisition…the uncola….for world media which now actually affects minor doctrine like e.g. the death penalty.
I don’t see these Popes as fully responsible for trampling Rom.13:4 on the death penalty under their feet. Fr. Raymond Brown, our then demythologizer in residence, served on the Pontifical Biblical Commission under both of the previous two Popes ( Benedict as CDF head ). He disbelieved verse after verse in the gospels….the flight to Egypt never happened; the killing of the innocents never happened; Mary saying the Magnificat never happened ( Birth of the Messiah ).
It is a short walk from him to Benedict not believing that God ordered the massacres scripture says He ordered ( Verbum Domini 42).
It is a short walk from Benedict to Francis saying of Islamic State they ” must be stopped…I do not say bombed”.
Lol….I ignore the chaos of their ballet dance around criminals and terrorist questions.
I do admire the Kurd women in Kobani as having more Biblical masculinity than our leaders in Rome…like Judith whom the Bible says had the courage of a man. I almost killed a man two years ago after trailing him from my house which he broke into. He came close to the particular judgement under my hands. God later reproved me partly….”death for goods…really?”. Later I showed God I could be different. A contractor after a dispute with me put two nails in my tire after getting my license plate number from a friend of his in city hall.
I knew where his trucks were. But I was different. The Lord had corrected me. I let it go and he didn’t do it a second time. It felt good to let him slap both cheeks. Now if that contracter or that thug break in at night…I’ll shotgun them into the particular judgement…slug or buckshot. This is the NY harbor. It can be biblical.
“especially Arab regions”
And most of the regions I mentioned contain few or no Arabs.
What Mary De Voe wrote about taking up armed force to vindicate the innocent is significant. Democrats in the United States advocate the murder of innocent unborn babies just as Islamists murder already born babies. Neither Democrats nor Islamists will give up their murdering ways without being forced to do so. They are both demonically inspired. Now that said, this is NOT something I advocate or want. But Satan is attacking us on two fronts: internally with his spawn the Democrats and externally with his spawn the Islamists. Yet one more word of caution is in order: not all Democrats nor all Islamists may be evil, but finding those who are not is becoming increasingly difficult. PS, don’t anyone take the law into his own hands. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay.
bill bannon: “The new pacifism of the Papacy is subconsciously an effort to remake the Church’s image as the non-inquisition…the uncola….for world media which now actually affects minor doctrine like e.g. the death penalty.”
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The death penalty was removed from the CCC because of St. John Paul II’s prudential judgement. John Paul II forgave his assassin who was released from prison.
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Both John Paul II and Pope Francis must respect the state, separate the church from the state and let the state be the state for even with prudential judgments they are out of their realm. The ordained priesthood, of course, does not carry a gun. Those persons baptized into the priesthood of the laity as priest, prophet and king must, however, see that Justice is done and the criminal brought to Justice. It is our duty.
Paul W. Primavera: “Yet one more word of caution is in order: not all Democrats nor all Islamists may be evil, but finding those who are not is becoming increasingly difficult. PS, don’t anyone take the law into his own hands. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay.”
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This is true. “only for his own sins may a man be punished” If the abortionists and the Isis only punished each man for his own sin, there would be peace. Islam sees the Christian as a blasphemer and punishes the blasphemer with death. Let God punish those who offend Him. (Thomas More, maybe)
Mary De Voe,
John Paul II in 1991 objected to the coalition that removed Hussein from invaded Kuwait. Had anyone listened to him, Kuwait would have remained as Iraq. I would call a series of his judgements post 1990 not prudential but bizarre….the death penalty bizarre judgement arrived in the mid 90’s. You can call it prudential.
To me it was bizarre also and will get hundreds killed per year where it is influential as in the Phillipines whose murder rate is 8 per 100,000 …24 times worse that pantheistic death penalty Japan.
Mairead Corrigan Maguire, “a devout Catholic” wrote,”‘I would like to send out a special appeal to Pope Francis’ asking ‘the Church to replace the theory of just war with a theology of peace and non-violence’ based on the commandment not to kill. Our Christian roots lie within Jesus’ non-violent approach,’ Maguire recalled, referring to what American theologian John L. McKenzie said when he stated that anyone who reads the Scriptures knows that Christ did not have a streak of violence in him.”
According to Dennis Prager, a religious Jew, talk radio host, author and an authority on Judaism, says the 5th commandment is “Thou shall not murder, not Kill.” Why does the Catholic Church use the word “kill?” There is a huge difference between the two, and that leaves people like Maguire to try to take us down the wrong road.
As for theologian McKenzie and the bible, if “Christ did not have a streak of violence in him,” then what was that little display inside the temple where he was turning over tables causing people to flee for their lives?
[…] K. V. Turley, Crisis But Catholics Do Have a Relationship With Christ – Anabelle Hazard U.S. Debates Torture Rep. While Christian Kids Beheaded – McClarey A Servant’s Heart – J. R. Baldwin, Ignitum Today WaPo: Some with Same-Sex […]
This all is so 2007!
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Lauren Fox: “The (Lame-Duck Dumokrat) Senate Is Done Investigating Torture. Will Drone Killings Be Next? ‘Obviously, we don’t interrogate prisoners anymore,” says one Republican. “Now all we do is kill them.’”
“And most of the regions I mentioned contain few or no Arabs.”
Same difference. Except for the Dutch East Indies and India, the other areas you named came under European sway only in the nineteenth century.
stilbelieve: “According to Dennis Prager, a religious Jew, talk radio host, author and an authority on Judaism, says the 5th commandment is “Thou shall not murder, not Kill.” Why does the Catholic Church use the word “kill?” There is a huge difference between the two, and that leaves people like Maguire to try to take us down the wrong road.”
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When a person is in mortal sin, he loses sanctifying grace and has forfeited his sovereignty. His personhood is suspended. A murderer falls beneath the animals. Animals are innocent. We do not murder murderers. We bring them to Justice by imposing the death penalty, thereby, killing them, for they have forfeited their sovereignty and their citizenship by taking the life of another sovereign person. A sovereign person may be murdered. A vicious killer, or murderer is killed, put to death. “Thou shalt not kill” means that no one is allowed to kill another, a neighbor, even if he is not in sanctifying grace unless that one is a murderer.
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The separation of church and state needs to be reinforced. Conscientious objection needs to be respected and reality needs to be faced.
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Maguire is talking to the wrong side and since she has not attempted to talk with the murderers of Islam, she has little or no validity.
The executioner acts through power of attorney of the condemned. The murderer is brought to Justice, the same Justice he refused to honor. As a priest, acting “in persona Christi” John Paul II had the power to forgive the sin of the murderer. It was Christ who forgives the sin, but the murder must expire with grief over the commission of his crime in perfect contrition. The murderer must promise not to enjoy his crime, make restitution and live a life of penance.
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The death penalty, capital punishment is the temporal punishment due to capital one homicide. A murderer is not murdered. A murderer is put to death.
“As for theologian McKenzie and the bible, if “Christ did not have a streak of violence in him,” then what was that little display inside the temple where he was turning over tables causing people to flee for their lives? ”
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Holy Anger.
Mary de Voe wrote, “Maguire is talking to the wrong side and since she has not attempted to talk with the murderers of Islam, she has little or no validity.”
Whether there is that much to choose between the Islamists and the Provos one may well doubt. Surely, the world will never forget the Hyde Park bombing in 1982, in which seven of the Blues & Royals’ horses were killed and Sefton so dreadfully injured (ironically, all Irish Draughts). Four troopers also died.
Sefton’s rider, Sgt Michael Pedersen never recovered from PTSD and, in 2012 committed suicide, after killing his two children, Ben, aged seven and Freya, aged six.
Yes, I agree with you Michael Paterson-Seymour. However, Maguire, calling for the end to the death penalty and the reformation of church doctrine on the just war theory is way over the top since these doctrines (The Ten Commandments) cut both ways and are eternal truths. Eternal truths are eternal and must be observed, especially when the truths come directly from God as has the Fifth Commandment.
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The devil is behind the slaughter of innocents. The devil must be repelled. Maguire is playing into the hands of those who accept nothing about the human person and the person’s God-given rights.
MP-S:
That last (3:17AM) blast was not necessary or helpful.
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So, coming right back at’cha: Surely the World will never forget 30 January 1972, Bloody Sunday, a.ka. the “Bogside Massacre.” British regulars (we Yanks had plenty experience with them in 1776 – 1781 and 1812 to 1814) shot down 26 civil rights protesters.
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Do you blokes mainatin info on Osama bin Laden and George Washington in the same file folder?
. 126 mostly children and teens were killed in Pakistan by the Taliban in today’s news. The four beheadings still resonate in their unique absurdity. According to the Pope…their killers should be imprisoned but not for life because life is a hidden execution. According to my Beijing born wife, the killers should be shot….an earlier form of lethal injection. She wanted the priest abusers shot. I’m an ameliorative influence relatively though I agree to the ” shot” part. Who is closer to Rom.13:4? The Pope or my wife? Probably most Beijing born women are closer to Rom.13:4 than Francis ever will be on this earth. Raymond Brown books may have taught him to delete verses that offend his inner tuition about God. His intuition is a hidden Bible like life sentences are a hidden execution.
The Pope has mercy on everyone except the victims.
‘ I wish people at the helm of Church and State had a hundredth of the fortitude of those murdered kids. ‘
So do I. What a waste of words, covering over the chaos of atrocious behaviors and suffering peoples, can do to accomplish nothing helpful and good.
NYTimes raised the figure to 145… here’s French tv
http://youtu.be/jufHhUBPKng
Bill Bannon
There is really nothing particularly novel about Raymond Brown. Exegetes have been saying much the same sort of thing, from Schleiermacher and Strauss to Bultmann
in the old Testament we see over and over again what happens when we co-operate, or try to negotiate, or in Any Way accept evil in our midst.
We must fight against evil.
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St. Michael is depicted with a sword. It is true that the Word (evangelization) is a sword, yes, and the hosts of heaven must respond with strength to help those who cannot protect themselves from the diabolic. The war is spiritual but it is also fought on this Earth.
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It is an honor a badge of honor that we reacted to the holocaust with vigor— it is terrible that we allowed the suffering of Russian people and those satellite nations without vigorous intervention. It is a shame to stand by and allow a murderous bloodthirsty person or gang of persons to work their evil will.
The story of those four young Christians reminds me of the Maccabean mother and her sons. Which also reminds us of the holy efforts of Mattathias and his son Juda (Maccabee).
The abomination(s), wanton killing, the rape, the unholy war requires us to respond or to admit we do not love.
Michael PS,
Save it for the choir.
T Shaw
Here is a curious autobiographical fact. On three occasions, I have been in the near vicinity of a terrorist bomb explosion.
The first time, on Monday 22nd January 1962, aged 16, I was on the embankment of the Seine, in front of the French Foreign Office at Quai d’Orsay, when the OAS plastiqueurs set off a bomb there. Three 5 kg (11 lb) charges of C-4 were used, packed into the mouldings of the facade. Hundreds of windows were blown in. One woman was killed and thirteen people injured.
The second was on Thursday 8th March 1973, when the IRA set off a bomb outside the Central Criminal Court in Old Bailey (which is a street) in the City of London. The bomb, about 14 kg or 30 lb of Semtex, was in a car across the street from a public house called the Magpie & Stump. One bar faces the street and the other is behind it, reached from an alleyway called Bishop’s Court. I was in the back bar, when the front of the building was blown in. In the street, one person died and one hundred and forty were injured
The third was on Saturday 17th December 1983, when the IRA planted another car bomb, similar to the Old Bailey bomb, in Hans Crescent, at the back of Harrods’s, the London department store. I was going there to do some Xmas shopping and had stopped to chat to a friend in Sloan Street. I would have used the Hans Crescent entrance. Six people were killed, including three police officers who had just arrived and were still in their car. One of the dead was an American visitor. Ninety people were injured.
“There is really nothing particularly novel about Raymond Brown.” Disagree Michael. His unique bad effect is that more people read and accepted him– perhaps because of his time and place, perhaps because of his disarming smile and soft spoken ways, stepping over the lines and then always carefully double-speaking or denying and stepping back from the damage he surely was smart enough to know that he was doing. We are so impressed with scholarship- should be more impressed with love and humility.
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I hope he and Murray and others are happy where they are. I am not familiar enough with doctrines about purgatory- can they make restitution from there?
Raymond Brown was on the Pontifical Biblical Commission….the others were not sitting in the Vatican so to speak. How are all these things the same? Now…..which of these is different. Raymond Brown is different.
Quick! Someone ask Hillary Clinton and Mark Shea how we can better empathize with such filthy animals.
St. Bernard de Clairvaux wrote in his endorsement of the Knights Templars, among other unknown concepts to today’s emasculated hierarchy, about “malicide”, the killing of evil-doers with the object of ending their horrors. That is not homicide. The concept fits perfectly with the “Thou shalt not kill” Commandment.
Genesis 9:6: He who spills man’s blood, by man shall his blood be spilt. For man is made in the image of God.
Kumbaya! Peace and justice crowd. There is a horrid point where evil-doers radically self-contradict all the good in a person made in God’s image and thereby surrender whatever respect that was due to human dignity.
T. Shaw,
Read Evangelium Vitae which partly dealt with the death penalty. John Paul II cited only the last tip of your quote several times and not once showed the reader that it was the REASON that you executed the murderer…because the victim is made in the image of God.
Here’s a sample…watch as he uses the verse prior to the execution mandate and the verse after but the execution mandate is never shown:
Evangelium Vitae
“From man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting” (Gen 9:5): reverence and love for every human life
39. Man’s life comes from God; it is his gift, his image and imprint, a sharing in his breath of life. God therefore is the sole Lord of this life: man cannot do with it as he wills. God himself makes this clear to Noah after the Flood: “For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting … and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life” (Gen 9:5). The biblical text is concerned to emphasize how the sacredness of life has its foundation in God and in his creative activity: “For God made man in his own image” (Gen 9:6).
Something that today’s modern clerics would do well to grasp:
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“…I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue and thoroughly immoral doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history that has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.” Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois , Starship Troopers, Robert Anson Heinlein
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Sadly, I fear that outside of Dhimmitude there is only one way to settle our differences with Islam. Moses and Joshua and Gideon and Samson and Deborah and Judith and David and all the rest would understand the fictional Lt. Col. Dubois, but the hierarchs of the Church cannot and will not.
“According to my Beijing born wife, the killers should be shot….an earlier form of lethal injection.”
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True
Michael Paterson-Seymour: “There is really nothing particularly novel about Raymond Brown. Exegetes have been saying much the same sort of thing, from Schleiermacher and Strauss to Bultmann.”
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Raymond Brown had no idea about which he spoke, especially the Gospel of Saint Luke. Ignoring the Gospel of Saint Luke and being on the “Biblical Commission” strikes me as an oxymoron.
In the original language, there are two distinct words for “kill” and “murder”, as there are in English.
The commandment does not forbid “killing”, but “murder”.
It is NOT a command of pacifism.
Michael, I agree. So, why does the Catholic Church translate the 5th Commandment using the word “kill?”