Monday, March 18, AD 2024 9:26pm

PopeWatch: Selfish Choice

 

VATICAN-POPE-AUDIENCE

 

Pope Francis enraged many of his most ardent fans with these comments:

Speaking Wednesday at his weekly general audience in St. Peter’s Square, the pontiff put it rather bluntly: “Not having children is a selfish choice.”

“Life rejuvenates and brings multiplying energy: It enriches, it does not impoverish,” said Francis, speaking during the audience on the role of children in the family.

“A society stingy in generation, that does not love to surround itself in children, that considers them overall a worry, a weight, a risk, is a depressed society,” said the pope.

The pope has been using his general audience in recent weeks to reflect on various roles in the family, leading up to October’s global meeting of Catholic bishops at the Vatican on the issue of contemporary struggles in family life.

Francis made his remarks about the need to have children in a brief aside during his talk Wednesday about the low level of birthrates in European countries.

“Let’s think of many societies that we know here in Europe,” said the pope. “They are depressed societies because they do not want children, they do not have children. The level of birth does not arrive at one percent.”

“Why?” the pontiff asked. “Everyone of us, think and respond.”

“The generation of children has to be responsible, as is taught also in the encyclical Humanae Vitae of Blessed Paul VI,” he continued, referring to the 1968 papal teaching that prohibits use of contraception by Catholics.

“But to have more children cannot become automatically an irresponsible choice,” said Francis. “Not having children is a selfish choice.”

Go here to read the rest.  The comments of the readers of The National Catholic Reporter are hilarious, an indication of how popular kids are on the Left, at least when Leftists are talking about kids they have themselves, rather than brainwashing the kids of other parents.  Needless to say PopeWatch believes the Pope’s comments are directly on target.  Comparing this with his rabbit comment of a few weeks ago demonstrates how difficult Pope Francis, and his pontificate, are to figure out.

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Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 5:43am

“Comparing this with his rabbit comment of a few weeks ago demonstrates how difficult Pope Francis, and his pontificate, are to figure out.”
Not at all
Est modus in rebus, sunt certi denique fines
Quos ultra citraque nequit consistere rectum.
[There is a mean in all things; and, moreover, certain limits on either side of which right cannot be found] says Horace in the First Satire. He probably borrowed it from Plautus (2nd century BC) who wrote (Pænulus)
Modus omnibus in rebus, soror, optimum est habitu;
Nimia omnia nimium exhibent negotium hominibus ex se.
[In everything the middle course is best, sister: all things in excess bring excessive trouble to people.]
Perhaps Plautus and Horace was thinking of the inscription on the shrine of the Delphic Oracle, μηδέν άγαν – Nothing in excess, which may well go back to the 8th century BC.

Ezabelle
Ezabelle
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 5:55am

I guess with everything in life, it’s all about balance.

In other words, the correct balance would be being open to the number of children God gives you, whilst at the same time having the commitment in ones heart to cherish and nurture ALL the children that God gives you.

I have two very close friends who were from families of 12 children. One friend has 5 children of her own. The other is not married.

Both tell me that the experience of living in such a large family negatively impacted on them, because their parents could not spend enough individual time with them. And in terms of sacrifice, there was a lot of it, growing up. No extra curricular activities, no family holidays, but more importantly, a herd mentality when it came to child rearing. A lack of discipline at time, when it became to hard. Or too harsh discipline when it became too hard.
Their siblings have 2, 3, 4 children- capped (haha).
(Disclaimer: Having said this, I witness bloggers with large families who come across as amazing parents. So, I think having a very large family is something that only a special person could do well. And hats off to them!)

Contrasting to the very large family, I’m sure there are families who stop at 1 child for selfish reasons (it’s “too expensive”, it’s “too hard”, the mother wants her “time for herself”, the father “can’t handle the lack of attention” he gets competing with that of his child- which is exactly how my brother-in-law and his wife think…unfortunately)

The Pope is right about Europe. The birth rate will not sustain any significant population growth, and so countries rely on immigration, which is poorly planned and so you get these social issues relating to lack of integration by immigrants, no effort to work etc..that governments tire of dealing with. I am generalising here. But, the theme is common.

A Muslim has no problem having large families with more than 1 wife. I find this abhorrent. But it’s no different to the insular pampered life of a family who only have 1 child because that’s all they can afford, to keep indulging in materialistic luxury, and unrestricted “me” time.

Well said Pope Francis. The message of balance is coming through.

And Thank you Donald, good post.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 6:50am

Donald R McClarey,
I prefer to think that the Holy Father, as a Jesuit, must be steeped in the Classical learning and that the sage apothegms of the Ancients, like their purity of style, mould, albeit unconsciously, the impromptu remarks with which he favours us.

Anzlyne
Anzlyne
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 7:40am

He comes across very well IF we do as he asked and Think: “Everyone of us, think and respond.”
.
“The generation of children has to be responsible, …. “to have more children cannot become automatically an irresponsible choice,” …“Not having children is a selfish choice.”

Stephen E Dalton
Stephen E Dalton
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 10:01am

Trying to make sense of this Pope’s remarks is trying to follow the logic in the Abbot and Costello “Who’s On First” skit.

c matt
c matt
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 11:06am

This Pope is very much about balance – he says something un-Catholic one day, and balances it out with something resembling Catholicism the next day. See, balanced!!

Tom M.
Tom M.
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 1:49pm

He is exactly right. I have friends that are childless on purpose and they have nice cars, fancy toys, and are on the lake every weekend. But, as they’ve gotten older, they seem less and less happy. Maybe that is just me projecting, but I really think I notice a difference.

Philip
Philip
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 2:11pm

I see this in my occupation. Women and men in their old age..over 58… 🙂 They rarely get visitors at the Nursing Homes. We make extra efforts to adopt them as step-parents / grandparents.

I see it in their eyes at Holidays.

Penguins Fan
Penguins Fan
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 5:00pm

Phillip, there will be more and more of them in the future. I recall a line the the Terminator 2 movie, where the Arnold terminator tells John Connor, “It is in your nature to destroy yourselves.”

the Old Adam
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 6:17pm

oh…never mind…

Elaine Krewer
Admin
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 6:26pm

Just for the record, let’s not forget that there are MANY couples whose childless state, or small number of children (1 or 2) is either not by their choice at all (e.g. due to infertility), or by the choice of one spouse over the objections of the other. If your spouse doesn’t want any more kids after the first or second one, you can try to change his or her mind by reasoned argument and prayer; but as long as they say “no” I don’t see how one can morally take any kind of deliberate action to subvert their wishes.

Elaine Krewer
Admin
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 6:35pm

By “deliberate action to subvert their wishes” I mean, of course, prior to conception (i.e. falsely claiming infertility or pregnancy avoidance in hopes of getting pregnant “accidentally on purpose”).

Patricia
Patricia
Thursday, February 12, AD 2015 11:00pm

Action … think and respond … Reaction.
Statement … think and respond … Reiteration.
.
“oh…never mind…”
.
Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell … no RSVP.

JS Person 1
JS Person 1
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 12:31am

Ehhhh……here is the thing. Let us take a hypothetical married couple. Using just NFP, they end up putting off kids for years and years, never fully closed off to the possibility, but not in a rush to have them. Eventually, age closes off the possibility.

Was that, in and of itself, a bad choice?

Is it selfish to not have kids? If we define the term in a certain way, yes. But people make “selfish”, or rather, “self-pleasing” choices all the time, without the matter being sinful. Yes, having kids will always be hard. But, if you truly worry you wont have the patience, or finances really are a problem, many of us would say that you cannot make a blanket condemnation of the character and morality of everyone who might hypothetically use NFP to put off having kids. You really have to be careful to consider each person’s individual circumstances. So no, I don’t buy that it is inherently, always, bad. Blanket statements just disregards those cases where it may be the right call.

Ezabelle
Ezabelle
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 4:44am

God always provides to those that trust in Him.

If you can have kids and choose not to have them, period, then it is selfish. The purpose of marriage is to pro-create. It is part of our marriage vows. Using the justification that NFP is being used, does not change the intention of the couple. They intend not to pro-create, and their marriage will always remain fruitless.

JS Person 1
JS Person 1
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 6:24am

“People will always find reasons to justify sheer selfishness”

The above phrasing (intended or not) dismisses various concerns without giving a proper hearing. So Don, you dismiss out of hand the idea that someone could have legitimate reasons for using NFP throughout their life to never have kids? No one? Its completely impossible? The group of “selfish people” you described above has no exceptions?

That seems a bit harsh. What I am going for is that it is at least theoretically possible that a couple that uses life-long NFP for the above purpose is in fact making the right call for them. I am not saying its not selfish most of the time, nor am I naive enough to think that the proportion of people who use NFP forever (as opposed to putting off having kids with artificial birth control) is that high. But given the blanket nature of the statements I have heard, I find it fair to note that its not in and of itself, in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED OR EVER COULD HAPPEN, morally wrong or selfish.

JS Person 1
JS Person 1
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 7:23am

So you won’t even entertain the possibility of any other reason? There is literally no economic or emotional ones, or any other? I’ll be frank….that seems unbelievably presumptuous. And yes, that word we liberals (well, happen to agree with liberals on certain matters) use a good deal….”privileged”

JS Person 1
JS Person 1
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 7:39am

Taking the economic justification…..so that applies in all circumstances? Literally, every single one? All you have to do is tighten your belt and everything will work out? And that is ALWAYS the case? You have not directly answered my question…..you keep going on about what people tend to do as a group. But you have not answered in the form of yes or no whether its literally impossible to have a good reason.

For our purposes here, it doesn’t matter what “tends” to be the case. What matters is whether there is the (remote) possibility that someone could be doing the right thing by infinite NFP use. Forget generalizations. Is it physically, scientifically, impossible for someone to have a good reason? Anyone? Even if its hypothetically only 1 person per 1000.

Michael Dowd
Michael Dowd
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:01am

Good for Pope Francis for saying this as the Catholic problem is lack of children due to materialism and lack of faith. My wife and I had 11 children all of which were unplanned and unprepared for. Our job as Catholics is to carry the load God assigns us and His job is to help us carry it. Of course, most rational people would never do such a thing and would say it was crazy. And I agree, being an orthodox Catholic is a little nuts. Perhaps that’s why it’s not done so much any more.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:03am

Look at the kind of life a kid in America will have today. Assume that their parents are at 40k a year household income, since that’s about average net compensation per person, and we’ll assume the mom stays home to help make ends meet.

Compare it to what royalty had 500 years ago.

Yes, people are very, very good at justifying selfish choices.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:17am

He is exactly right. I have friends that are childless on purpose and they have nice cars, fancy toys, and are on the lake every weekend. But, as they’ve gotten older, they seem less and less happy.
Half of my father’s brothers have no children, and I’ve mentioned that my mom has “a lot” for her family at three. When we were little, it was masked because– hey, cousins! Now, though….
Not only are the childless ones awful sad-seeming, especially when we see them with our kids, but it just guts me to see how most of those who only had two are hurting when their kids either stay kids, or only have one or two themselves.

doris cioffi
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:20am

I have a daughter who has no children she and her husband wanted them but were never blessed to have one. Both of them would have been wonderful and loving parents. They both have college and good jobs and the children would have had a stable and solid life. On the other hand I have other family members who never married have children from different fathers and their future is unstable and the mothers live on welfare. Its things like this I don’t understand. The people who want them can’t and the ones who could care less have many and we the tax’s payers have to pay for them. It breaks my heart to see my daughter childless knowing how much she and her husband of 5 years wants one and can’t. They say that babies are a gift from god but why would god send these innocent babies to people that don’t want them and abort them and then not send them to the people who want them and would love them and protect them. I get so confused when I think of this.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:37am

Oh, and Donald– you forgot one of the great tragedies of excessive financial justification.
You wait until you’re done with college.
Then you wait until you have a job.
Then you wait until you have a good job.
Then you wait until you have a house.
Then you wait until you have an emergency fund.
Finally, about 30, you start “trying.”
And you find that you can’t.
That’s where about half of our married friends are.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:57am

Foxfier wrote, “Assume that their parents are at 40k a year household income…”

Interesting. The annual fees at my old (Catholic) school in England, for pupils aged 13-18 are £29,226 pa or US$45,030. A day school, really only an option in a few large cities, would cost £13,864 pa or US$21,351

Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 9:59am

I know the pope and Church’s message, but sometimes it can sting. My wife and I have a nice home and cars. Not because of lack of children but because God blessed me with software engineering skills. We have 1 child, and she came by adoption. We tried for years and still do. When it was not happening, we tried using Catholic Charities twice and they dropped the ball both times. That burned several years. It’s by God’s providence our child’s birth father met my wife through an acquaintance. The birth parents met us and wanted us as parents, which was accomplished by a Baptist adoption agency that was repeatedly recommended to the birth mother by local medical workers.
.
So why the sting? Because you could look at our family and judge us to be one of those selfish people. But, if you only knew the whole back story, it wouldn’t be so. Well, I hope not so. I came from a family of 8 and thought I would have at least 4 kids. I do know when I die my biggest regret is not doing more, e.g. using a different agency, is not having more kids.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 10:57am

Michael Paterson-Seymour-
America isn’t England. If “day school” is what you call normal school, then ours are effectively free to the user (tax financed); we’ve also established, from your view that early music lessons are a basic requirement, that your blood is quite a bit richer than average for over here. Our local parish doesn’t give costs on the schooling, but I know they have a massive discount for multiple children, and that you can talk to your priest to set up something you can afford.
Also, we usually have the option of home schooling. That comes to a few hundred dollars a year (plus lots of blood, sweat and tears– but that’s parenthood), and also bypasses the need for the mother to work just to mostly pay for daycare.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 11:09am

Kyle-
I’ve had folks tell me to “stop judging them” when I wasn’t even thinking of it; people actually say things like “so, your girls are twins?” or “how great, you got a boy, now you can stop.” Not looking forward to when this baby gets here.
My Catholic relatives pulled the “you know what causes that, right?” question out on our second child. A random lady at church was more excited for us than either of our families– she was pregnant at the same time I was with our boy, although hers was after nearly six years of desperately trying after the daughter they got only after years of trying.
She outweighs the half-dozen who actually told us to stop, now. Total strangers, can’t even tell the “twins” are two years apart, but feel free to give intimate advice after sitting in the crying room for the last half-hour with their poorly behaved nephew.
If someone doesn’t actually say something nasty, I tend to figure that they’re in the “just happened” category; I really wish I could count more people there.

Mary De Voe
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 12:30pm

My son rebuilt my computer. Thank you for your prayers.
Pope Francis is responding to the Holy Spirit in answer to our prayers. (atheists please take note)
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The greatest and most profound gift a parent may give his child are brothers and sisters, who are companions on the road of life. My children have assisted one another by paying mortgages, bailing two daughters out of bankruptcy and loss of homes, paying taxes, buying cars, assisting in college tuition, being there at bedside during surgery, sending money for food during Sandy when the Turnpike was closed and the stores were empty. Helping raise their nieces and nephews, (and their mother). The children were there when each one of us was in death and dying, consolation and compassion.
The finest thing I ever learned was when my brother, at three years of age, split my head open with his pyrex bottle in a pillow case for tormenting him. Now, he is my best friend. I never tormented anybody ever again. (except maybe the commentators here at The American Catholic.)
The second and most important of all is that the newly begotten, innocent human being is the standard of Justice to the state. God creates only innocent human beings. The devil corrupts each and every one of us. All crime and injustice is the devil’s work. The devil is a liar and a murderer.
The innocent, morally and legally innocent, immortal human being is one of the ways that God renews the face of the earth. Given sovereign personhood at the very first moment of his existence, (Snowflake babies, frozen embryos, are evidence of immediate personhood.), the child is given citizenship at birth. It is the child’s innocence that allows him to constitute government, our nation and “We, the people…” (Does the convicted and condemned capital one murderer constitute the state? Only by being brought to Justice. By being brought to Justice, the evildoer recognizes Justice.) The innocent person, never more innocent, then at being a one celled creature with sovereign personhood, free will and intellect of his rational, immortal human soul endowed to his first human cell, must grow to maturity to fulfill his potential. A human being with potential is created through procreation, making of a man, a father and of a woman, a mother, immediately.
My sister-in-law, who had six children, answered their complaints about the poverty they endured by telling the complaintant that the family would give one of the children away, but it was his job to choose the child to be given away, brother or sister, to be given away. This never happened and a growing awareness and affection for the other and oneself did happen.
The state is constituted by innocence and Justice to protect “and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our (constitutional) posterity.”
Here, in Maryland, the people are being given a law to ban abortion to pain capable unborn children while the state is secretly slipping in legislation for assisted suicide, something like a swindle of the taxpayers. “We, the people” do not consider the lives of our legislators as our own private property. Why then, do our legislators consider the lives of their constituents, the taxpayers, “We, the people” as their own private property? Dred Scott, Roe v. Wade, Lawrence v. Texas. Justice is predicated on intent. Intent is an act of the free will, an attribute of the human, rational soul. Why does the Supreme Court ignore the human soul? Is it to discriminate against the Person of God?
Oh, did I say thank you for your prayers. You were greatly missed.

Michael Dowd
Michael Dowd
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 12:48pm

Thanks for the thumbs-up Donald. I feel very blessed about being the father of 11 but must confess that in the midst of it all we were not especially euphoric. One of the hardest things was the rapid deterioration of orthodox Catholic education beginning after Vatican II. Because of this we had to pull all the kids out of Catholic school and started our own school with the help of other parents. Eventually that failed so my wife started her own religious education program at local public school. About 100 kids attended. These kids had to be taken to another Diocese for confirmation. Because of all this our kids attended public school which we thought was spiritually better for them than being exposed to the heretical teachings of the Catholic schools.

Mary De Voe
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 12:50pm

Foxfier: “If someone doesn’t actually say something nasty, I tend to figure that they’re in the “just happened” category; I really wish I could count more people there.”
When i was carrying my first child, an individual ran me down with their shopping cart on purpose. Years later, while I was crossing the street, another individual tried to run me down with his car. I was not pregnant, only alive. These individuals are coerced by the devil. Pay them no mind.
Sometimes I wonder, that in the Old Testament, after six months, the woman and her child went “into hiding”. Now, I no longer wonder. I know. These people do not deserve to be called people. Maybe, when they mature to respect and appreciate human beings, and acknowledge God, they may become human. They are the selfish individuals Pope Francis speaks of.

Mary De Voe
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 1:06pm

Stephen E Dalton: “Trying to make sense of this Pope’s remarks is trying to follow the logic in the Abbot and Costello “Who’s On First” skit.”
Mister Dalton: Put Pope Francis in God’s hands. God made him, God will take care of him.
I have said it before. Pope Francis resembles Stan Laurel of Laurel and Hardy fame. “Look what a mess you have gotten us into this time.”

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 1:14pm

Foxfier wrote, “we usually have the option of home schooling…”

My mother, who was born in 1910, was home-schooled or, to be precise, she and her sister used to have lessons with the daughters of a neighbouring family, who kept a governess. At the age of 16, she spent a year at a convent school near Antwerp in Belgium.
She started teaching me French when I was very little and, to this day, any number of French people ask me if I am Flemish. What goes in with the milk only goes out with the breath. Her father, who had been a seagoing engineer, taught her maths, including trigonometry and astronomy.
As for early music lessons, did I mention that my mother had her first piano lessons at 4 or 5 and that her teacher was a pupil of Clara Schumann? My mother playing Brahms are among my earliest memories.
My mother married at 23 and I was the first and only child that she carried to term. That was in 1945, when she was 35. She had a great devotion to St Jude.

JS Person 1
JS Person 1
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 3:58pm

Don, I would not say anything, because it’s not my business.

I qualified my identification with liberals because yes, many can be so UNBELIEVABLY condescending and dismissive…which I find similar to simply dismissing the concerns of a couple that did what I suggested out of hand. The point I was making was that, so long as they were not doing something our church says is a sin, can’t we give couples the benefit of the doubt? Whichever path they walk on.

We are called to humility. Assuming we know that every. single. couple. That ever made the choice to put kids off forever (assuming with NFP) were being selfish brats….without even giving them a chance to explain….without trying to understand thier reasoning…..that seems arrogant.

Tom M.
Tom M.
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 4:34pm

Donald,

What do you think about those who don’t use NFP but make use of the welfare system? If I remember correctly, there was a politician in Idaho who had 10 kids and all were on medicaid.

Foxfier
Admin
Friday, February 13, AD 2015 4:44pm

Please don’t change the topic; Donald’s prudential and personal judgement of the nebulous group of those who “make use of welfare” really has nothing to do with anything.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Saturday, February 14, AD 2015 4:26am

Tom M asked, “What do you think about those who don’t use NFP but make use of the welfare system?”
In Casti Conubii, Pope Pius XI made clear the responsibility of the public authorities: “120. If, however, for this purpose, private resources do not suffice, it is the duty of the public authority to supply for the insufficient forces of individual effort, particularly in a matter which is of such importance to the common weal, touching as it does the maintenance of the family and married people. If families, particularly those in which there are many children, have not suitable dwellings; if the husband cannot find employment and means of livelihood; if the necessities of life cannot be purchased except at exorbitant prices; if even the mother of the family to the great harm of the home, is compelled to go forth and seek a living by her own labour; if she, too, in the ordinary or even extraordinary labours of childbirth, is deprived of proper food, medicine, and the assistance of a skilled physician, it is patent to all to what an extent married people may lose heart, and how home life and the observance of God’s commands are rendered difficult for them; indeed it is obvious how great a peril can arise to the public security and to the welfare and very life of civil society itself when such men are reduced to that condition of desperation that, having nothing which they fear to lose, they are emboldened to hope for chance advantage from the upheaval of the state and of established order.
121. Wherefore, those who have the care of the State and of the public good cannot neglect the needs of married people and their families, without bringing great harm upon the State and on the common welfare. Hence, in making the laws and in disposing of public funds they must do their utmost to relieve the needs of the poor, considering such a task as one of the most important of their administrative duties.”

Tom M.
Tom M.
Saturday, February 14, AD 2015 1:07pm

I agree with Donald. This might not be politically correct but in all these cases that have been in the news recently(Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, etc.) it seems that none of them come from a traditional 2 parent family. The US welfare state is a hindrance to the traditional family.

Michael Paterson-Seymour, you’re European right? See you have to understand that in the US we do weird things like means test most of the social welfare benefits. So, if you’re unmarried with kids you get more money from the state. What’s worse, because they are means tested, if you try to work your way up the income ladder you get your benefits taken away from you. This provides a perverse incentive not to work which results in all kinds of social pathologies.

Foxfier
Admin
Saturday, February 14, AD 2015 2:36pm

The means testing is a partial fix on what it was before– where my mom knew multiple families that were two or three generations into being supported by the state. It took nearly a decade before they managed to get back into being supported by the gov’t. (Some people will put a lot of effort into avoiding work. Don’t know why.)

Foxfier
Admin
Saturday, February 14, AD 2015 2:39pm

All of this to fix a system that was a fix of private charity not managing to save everyone, of course…. *sigh*

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