Bishop Elect Barron has a post at Catholic News Report that rubs me the wrong way. Here is the beginning:
Just last week, Stephen Colbert gave an interview in which the depth of his Catholic faith was on pretty clear display. Discussing the trauma that he experienced as a young man-the deaths of his father and two of his brothers in a plane crash – he told the interviewer how, through the ministrations of his mother, he had learned not only to accept what had happened but actually to rejoice in it: “Boy, did I have a bomb when I was ten; that was quite an explosion…It’s that I love the thing that I wish most had not happened.”
Flummoxed, his interlocutor asked him to elaborate on the paradox. Without missing a beat, Colbert cited J.R.R. Tolkien: “What punishments of God are not gifts?” What a wonderful sermon on the salvific quality of suffering! And it was delivered, not by a priest or bishop or evangelist, but by a comedian about to take over one of the most popular television programs on late night.
Go here to read the rest. The problem that I have with this is that the Bishop-Elect fails to note that on a crucial issue, abortion, Colbert is in opposition to the Faith. Go here to see a video in which Colbert ridicules the efforts in 2011 to defund Planned Parenthood Worse Than Murder, Inc. on the grounds that abortions make up only three percent of the business of Worse Than Murder, Inc. There are two problems with this line of argument. First, because it is morally obtuse: “Look at all the good things that Hitler did! Murdering millions of people in death camps was only a very small percentage of what the Third Reich accomplished!” The fact that Planned Parenthood is engaged in killing innocent children in utero should be repugnant to any “good Catholic”, or, indeed, any man or woman of conscience. Second, because it is a lie. Colbert got the three percent figure from Planned Parenthood talking points. The figure is ludicrous. Planned Parenthood performs thirty percent of all abortions in this country. Abortions are a major revenue generator for them. Even the pro-abort Washington Post a few weeks ago, admitted that the three percent figure is deceitful:
The Church has been against abortion since the time of Christ. Stephen Colbert defends the organization that promotes the ongoing murder of the most innocent among us. Go here to watch a video of his drinking game, with a drink being taken whenever Rick Santorum mentioned partial birth abortion.
Well, so what? Can’t Barron salute Colbert’s Catholicism without having to bring up where he deviates from the Faith? Let’s try a thought experiment. Imagine that we have a public figure who has stated how important Catholicism is to him, but who also has made derogatory comments about other races. Does anyone imagine that the Bishop elect would celebrate his Catholicism? Why not? Because racism is universally condemned in our society. Abortion on the other hand is embraced by a large sector of society, usually on the political left. Stephen Colbert is part of that section of society. As a result, there is a grave temptation in today’s Church to overlook the fact that many prominent people, touted as good Catholics, embrace the slaying of the innocent in the womb. Assuming that the Bishop elect is aware of the position of Stephen Colbert on abortion, and as media-savey as Barron is I find it hard to believe that he is not, it is gravely misleading for him to celebrate the Catholicism of Colbert without pointing out that he is far from Catholicism on this issue. Not to do so, is merely to add to the considerable body of existing evidence that although Catholic clerics talk a good game on abortion, that it really doesn’t matter to them in the great scheme of things.
Another good article with astute observations.
“Look at all the good things that Hitler did!”
I occasionally remind my loving friends and relatives, who no longer bother with church(those with perfect lives, jobs, children, and homes) that the Nazi’s children were perfectly disciplined too.
They don’t admit their misdirection–needless to say–I become the problem.
. Great piece, Don. I rarely was up that late but on a rare night I surfed to it and Jane Fonda was coming on to him
and then sitting on his lap and getting closer. First she was on a Vietcong tank….then Colbert years later. I can only hope Whitey Bulger doesn’t get a public Mass with high clergy when he dies with subtle hints that he’s glory bound because he was good in prison. A Mass yes…but he should have been renditioned to Saudi Arabia.
I agree with Bill Bannon.
It’s way past time for us to just admit to ourselves that the leaders of our Church don’t ACTUALLY believe about abortion what they claim to believe.
Exceptional piece of the puzzle.
Combine this missed opportunity with a Papal indifference to abortions then you have exactly what we experienced in the last two presidential elections… Catholics voting in pro-aborts without a care in their hearts.
This article should be brought up next Sunday from the ambo, given by each priest as his homily.
Paraphrasing Twain, “Suppose you were a liberal. And, suppose you were an imbecile. But, I repeat myself.”
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That the interviewer did not call-out Colbert on that moral nonsense tells us more about the interviewer than about Colbert.
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“. . . .abortions make up only three percent of the business of Worse Than Murder, Inc.” is equivalent to telling a Holocaust survivor’s grandchildren that the Holocaust was less than 1% of Nazi Germany’s GDP in the 1940’s.
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The other “moral obtuseness”, and contradiction of Catholic Teachings, is that of the sinfulness of WTM Inc.’s activities with regard to propagating artificial contraception, which, as with abortion, your (not mine) so-called hierarchy demonstrably denies.
I don’t typically comment but on this I feel compelled. Sometimes it’s ok to not rejoice in the sin of another and to simply celebrate the Good Work God is doing in them. My hope is that like in the gospel, those of you that would throw the first stones at your fellow humans who struggle with following the teachings of the church would be completely without sin.
Jesus didn’t ask us, nor does the church, to lambaste our fellow Catholics in the hopes of making our positions stronger. Jesus AND the church asks us to reconcile with each other, to discern together the way of the cross and to faithfully follow Jesus joyfully.
We are to be in the world but not of it. Sometimes the world simply does what we know to be incorrect and yet it is our job to speak in LOVE to them, and allow them to turn from the sin themselves, not to force them to do it. Planned Parenthood, while actively going against church teaching, is NOT a function of the church, nor of her people. If you force them to shut down, you will literally just cause a scattering where they reopen and resolve to fight. If you love them to the understanding of the church, not only will they voluntarily close, but you will also have evangelized and brought others to Christ.
My question for everyone is simple, Do you love Jesus enough to allow God to work in the lives of those people that are repugnant to you? Do you love Jesus enough to show up and LOVE sinners? Do you even know Jesus?
“If you force them to shut down, you will literally just cause a scattering where they reopen and resolve to fight. If you love them to the understanding of the church, not only will they voluntarily close, but you will also have evangelized and brought others to Christ.”
Why not do both? Seek to evangelize them and also seek to extend legal protection to the unborn. What a Catholic must not do is precisely what Stephen Colbert has done: defend Planned Parenthood and attack those who are attempting to end its part in the abortion holocaust.
Fr. Barron, a flaky Catholic celebrity praising another flaky Catholic celebrity. Par for the course!
I don’t understand the Bishop elect talking about a television celebrity as the topic for his Catholhc article, when there are more pressing and interesting topics to refer to?
What is the obsession with looking to celebrities for some trace of fidelity to God? You won’t find any. And for an educated elect Bishop to do so, brings down his credibility a notch.
It’s all mind-numbing. And because it’s mind numbing, it’s boring and frustrating. Especially when the world is so thirsty for the Word of God. Whether they realise it or not!
My hope is that like in the gospel, those of you that would throw the first stones at your fellow humans who struggle with following the teachings of the church would be completely without sin.
False equivalency. It is one thing to sin and fall short in one’s behavior, and quite another to obstinately oppose a principal tenet of the faith. Colbert is not “struggling” with following the teachings of the Church; he is manifestly contradicting them.
Jesus didn’t ask us, nor does the church, to lambaste our fellow Catholics in the hopes of making our positions stronger. Jesus AND the church asks us to reconcile with each other, to discern together the way of the cross and to faithfully follow Jesus joyfully.
This is a strawman argument. First of all, fraternal correction is always appropriate, and does not require lambasting the other person. Second, even if one does not choose to dwell on another’s sinful or heretical behavior, it does not follow that it is then appropriate to publicly applaud a person’s faith when that person is publicly causing scandal by his opposition to Church teaching.
Do you love Jesus enough to allow God to work in the lives of those people that are repugnant to you? Do you love Jesus enough to show up and LOVE sinners? Do you even know Jesus?>
Perhaps you did not intend this, but your tone comes off as rather self-righteous, and frankly contradicts what you’ve just written. I always find it rather amusing that the people who complain the most bitterly about harsh judgment immediately turn around and implicitly question the interior disposition of the people they are addressing.
but your tone comes off as rather self-righteous,
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Or cloying.
‘ fellow humans who struggle with following the teachings of the church ‘
‘ to reconcile with each other, to discern together the way of the cross and to faithfully follow Jesus joyfully ‘
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The ‘Together’ part should be part of the struggle, or it becomes a cafeteria serving satisfaction for varying appetites. It is essential for the wholesomeness of the children allowed to live and the standards by which they proceed to maintain integrity and sanity..
Kat,
Do you even know Scripture all of which is inspired by Jesus? Here’s Titus 3:10 ” After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, 11 realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.”
That is Jesus saying that through the epistle author. The real Jesus left His hometown because His love did zilch there….Matthew 13:53-58….58 “And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith”.
Where’s the heresy? Abortion is not simply universal ordinary magisterium anymore in the Church…an area somewhat iffy varying with the topic and Pope…e.g. death penalty of Romans 13:4. In Evangelium Vitae section 62 it …abortion as evil was made crystal clear in the extraordinary magisterium in words resembling the wording used in the Assumption and Immaculate Conception encyclicals. Pope St. JPII polled all Bishops on abortion and was therefore able to make its condemnation totally clear and infallible which is rare outside the problematic unversal ordinary magisterium.
Therefore unlike most moral issues….abortion being clearly infallibly condemned along with euthanasia and killing the innocent….can theoretically lead to excommunication in a Church court. Which makes Titus 3:10 very applicable…Jesus telling you yourself to shun a fellow Catholic holding abortion as moral sometimes.
Throwing stones by me at both Colbert and Whitey Bulger is metaphoric and quite inaccurate because I prayed for both men ….Whitey last night after hearing him call himself an Irish Catholic on an FBI tape. He strangled a young girl in front of her boyfriend because she simply knew of his being an FBI informant….and he killed many others. God reminded me recently in a street fight with a criminal that I’m frightfully near murder even now….while that was perfectly obvious when I was young. Without Him, I’m the vigilante killer…still earns eternal damnation though I do think governments should have extrajudicial killing teams with multiple layers of approval. Bulger killed for thirty years with corrupted contacts in local, state and Federal levels. There should be an epikeia team within government that would have protected that girl he strangled by killing him. I would have been sorely tempted to kill Bulger if he threatened my young daughter as he did to Rakes….a liquor store owner he was extorting in South Boston. But if you see me throwing stones verbally, you can be sure I’m praying for those people because I pray for the worst of the world almost nightly for many years because without God…I’m not that far from them. Every line of the epistles is from Christ…Vatican II Dei Verbum….” both testaments in all their parts have God as their author”. Christ even in His literal words on earth talked of shunning in this Mt.18:15-17 passage…” if your brother sin against you, show him in private. If he does not listen,…take one or two more with you…if he refuses to listen to them, take him to the church…if he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as the gentile and the tax collector”.
So the real actual Jesus does not sound like the one you are asking us about. The real Jesus had limits not on love but on friendliness. Love can be done through prayer after friendliness ends…after contact ends. Two of the functions Christ has right now in Heaven are…intercession ( Hebrews 7:25) and waiting while His enemies are made into His footstool ( psalm 110:1, Acts 2:35, …and I Cor. 15:25…”For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet.”
Love and justice….not just the former.
“Jesus didn’t ask us, nor does the church, to lambaste our fellow Catholics in the hopes of making our positions stronger. Jesus AND the church asks us to reconcile with each other, to discern together the way of the cross and to faithfully follow Jesus joyfully.”
This is a strawman argument. First of all, fraternal correction is always appropriate, and does not require lambasting the other person.
Indeed, PZ. In fact, admonishing the sinner is one of the seven spiritual works of mercy.
Of all and any people, Catholics, because of Mary saying : “I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION” must know that the human being comes into existence at procreation. At procreation, God creates and infuses an immortal, rational, human soul into the newly begotten human being endowed with free will and sovereign personhood. “Before you were in your mother’s womb, I knew you..Isaiah. Unbelief in the immortal, human soul is atheism and the subjugation of the sovereign person to the animal kingdom, to subhumanism. It is called secularism today, but it is subhumanism.
The other thing that violated my sense of truth is that the man celebrated his parents’ demise, instead of seriously praying for them. The victims of death are the ones who may celebrate, not their left behind loved ones.
Somebody once told me that I ought to be glad, for abortion sends many innocent souls to heaven. This is the lie given over to our supposedly spiritual directors. The rest is atheism. The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse: Unbridled Ignorance. Refusal to cogitate and use our rational soul. Thinking without our soul is is what??? Sins against the Holy Spirit.
“Jesus didn’t ask us, nor does the church, to lambaste our fellow Catholics in the hopes of making our positions stronger. Jesus AND the church asks us to reconcile with each other, to discern together the way of the cross and to faithfully follow Jesus joyfully.”
We are not “fellow Catholics”. Stop ex-appropriating my support for an unholy alliance. It is the principle of injustice that must be addressed, not the fool embracing such an evil. Who will exorcise the devil if the devil is allowed to hide in the human form of a human being? Are there enough swine to hold the legion? At least the Chosen People did not allow human sacrifice to Molech. the Chosen People were instructed to drive those nations out of the Holy Land. People who have eyes but cannot see, have ears but cannot hear…a free will choice.
“If you love them to the understanding of the church, not only will they voluntarily close, but you will also have evangelized and brought others to Christ.”. -Kay
So we have a clear understanding of this loving them to the understanding of the church? Please do tell!
The sidewalk prayers and counseling that have been active since the beginning, 1973, are understandable. They have saved babies.
They have born fruit, ie Rachel’s vineyard, Silent No More, Our Lady of Good Council Homes just to name a few. To me this is clear understanding of the church’s love in the middle of this rotten mess…tax funded abortions on demand.
The results of a sit back and love without opposition to the rotten mess is not working well Kay. Do you think we have less abortions because we have been visible and outspoken in this war? I believe it is so. Should we unite as a undivided Church in proclaiming abortion to be the scourge of our times, and to not perpetuate the war by making accountable the representative’s that want our vote? Yes!
To be divided as a body of Christ in this issue of Life for all, born and unborn, is prolonging the deaths of the Innocent’s.
60 million today. 100 million tomorrow?
Choose unity. Choose life.
“If you love them to the understanding of the church, not only will they voluntarily close, but you will also have evangelized and brought others to Christ.”
I wish this was true Kat, but the devil does not back down so easily. Especially not with love.
It is right to judge these people and their actions, because their intentions are evil, knowingly and deliberately. By choice. We must oppose. We must condemn deliberate evil actions. But also pray for God to intervene.
It is not right, however, to judge those, whose intention is misguided, confused- most probably unknowing. I guess you could apply your philosophy to these folk.
Celebrities, are a mixed bag of the two- it’s difficult to discern who is what.
I don’t agree. And that’s because this wasn’t a Salute to Stephen Colbert, Comedian, Catholic; rather it was a meditation on the Graces that come from deep suffering, in which Stephen Colbert, Comedian, Catholic was but one of three exemplars, the others being J.R.R. Tolkien, Author, Catholic, and John Henry Cardinal Newman, Convert, Catholic.
This is a salute:
“Just last week, Stephen Colbert gave an interview in which the depth of his Catholic faith was on pretty clear display. Discussing the trauma that he experienced as a young man-the deaths of his father and two of his brothers in a plane crash – he told the interviewer how, through the ministrations of his mother, he had learned not only to accept what had happened but actually to rejoice in it: “Boy, did I have a bomb when I was ten; that was quite an explosion…It’s that I love the thing that I wish most had not happened.”
Flummoxed, his interlocutor asked him to elaborate on the paradox. Without missing a beat, Colbert cited J.R.R. Tolkien: “What punishments of God are not gifts?” What a wonderful sermon on the salvific quality of suffering! And it was delivered, not by a priest or bishop or evangelist, but by a comedian about to take over one of the most popular television programs on late night.”
The thing that links Colbert, with Tolkein and Cardinal Newman isn’t his Catholocism or his celebrity, it’s his experience of the mystery and wonder of God’s providence –to paraphrase Bishop Elect Barron.
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In case that wasn’t clear.
I thought it was an introduction.
It was both.
I don’t read it that way. But all I knew about Colbert before this article was that he had a show I’ve never seen on a cable channel I don’t have and that he’s replacing a late night talking head I never liked on a show I rarely watched. Oh, and he voiced the President in fairly good Dreamworks Animation pic. I take it that he made a career for himself lampooning the emminently lampoonable Bill O’Reilly.
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Since today is the first time I’ve learned that he’s a pro-choice Catholic, When I read the BIshop-Elect’s piece last night, I didn’t read it as a commentary on the totality or authenticiy of Colbert’s Catholic witness, just on his witness to the experience of Grace in suffering. So to my mind, the point is irrelevant to Barron’s essay.
“So to my mind, the point is irrelevant to Barron’s essay.”
Whenever anyone is pointed to in the way in which Barron pointed to Colbert, noting the depth of that person’s faith, how the individual lives his Catholicism is relevant, especially in regard to someone like Colbert who has dissented from Church teaching publicly, stridently and unapologetically. This is akin to a priest noting that a Mafia killer never missed Mass on Sunday.
What I now wish I had said:
I’m sorry it rubs you the wrong way, because I think it might be keeping you from seeing the point, which is “God’s providence is a mysterious and wonderful thing[,]” and “our lives are not about us[;] . . . they are, in fact, ingredient in God’s providential purposes, part of a story that stretches infinitely beyond what we can immediately grasp.” And even a celebrity pro-Abort shallow cafateria catholic (assuming that is in fact what Colbert is) can sometimes offer witness to the Truth.
Gee, I wonder if Barron would have praised the faith of Colbert if he had been say, stridently anti-abortion but pro-death penalty. I have a sleeking suspicion he would deliver a homily laced with F-Bombs and other expletives before he would do that.
The interviewer in the video above posted on his Facebook page about all the hate coming from Catholics after the June 26 decision about gay “marriage”. He celebrates it.
All three of these characters – Colbert, Barron, and Martin make the devil gleeful- quite good catches for the dark side- but we are praying for our Church and must defend truth – I don’t want to pray for these three because I am angry and hurt by the deception. I don’t do a good job but I know I should.
About fr Martin – father Z has written about him a few times . Also there is this
http://www.davidlgray.info/blog/2015/07/fr-james-martin/
“And even a celebrity pro-Abort shallow cafateria catholic (assuming that is in fact what Colbert is) can sometimes offer witness to the Truth.”
Indeed, as can the Devil.
“Colbert, Barron, and Martin make the devil gleeful”
To be fair to Father Barron, he has normally been orthodox. He recently released a brilliant video on the Planned Parenthood videos that I will feature in a post tomorrow. I wrote this post because I expect better from Barron. With many other clerics, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.
Give Barron the benefit of the doubt that:
A) he doesn’t know of Colberts stance on abortion
Or
B) he knows his stance on abortion and is shining light on Colbert’s good understanding of suffering, to slowly turn him around to see his flawed view. If Baron is Bishop of Los Angeles/Hollywood- then he would have a vested interest in having dialogue with “Catholic” celebrities (which is beyond me- they’re all about attention).
If B) is true, it will only be evident over time.
Btw, Colbert mocking Santorum over partial birth abortion is beyond appalling. And low.
Someone should send him a picture of a murdered baby and see if he laughs.
We can thank God for any Grace that we have, but we cannot argue about the degree of our faith – it is like discussing the extent of how much you Love. The Love of God is limitless and the extent of our Love for God may only be measured by God. God does not and could not accept abortions – the degree of our Love for God should understand that and thus – that is our relationship with God.
But we are all sinners and God is all merciful, so he can and must be the Judge.
Okay Mark.
I wanted to expect better from Fr Barron too.
“Okay Mark.”
Actually James, James 2:19 to be precise:
“Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.”
Once again, thank you Donald. It is perfectly clear for all to see that the majority of the hierarchy of the Catholic church is not pro-life. These bishops do not believe abortion is murder, a holocaust in all but name. Your proof is irrefutable. “Lets try a thought experiment.” Indeed. Substitute slavery for the unborn and there is not one single prelate who would act the way ours do. The Father Barrons of the world would not be celebrating the “deep Catholic faith” of any such persons.
I have to say that being disappointed is an understatement for me. After the CMP videos started coming out, I’ve been waiting to hear a statement from Archbishop Lori. He hasn’t said anything. Not one word. I’m extremely disappointed. I feel like a complete wretch giving money every month to the 5 year Capital Campaign that we pledged to. Part of the money comes back to the parish, but our parish priest had made it abundantly clear to not give the money directly to the parish. I tend to agree that it’s becoming more apparent that the higher ups in the Church aren’t as opposed to abortion as they say they are.
Fr. Barron went wobbly when he found out they wanted to make him a bishop. I called a posting of his cowardly. The liberal archbishop of Chicago got him promoted out of his hair. Another critic of Barron noted that he thinks hardly anyone will end up in hell. Christ seemed a little clear about those who do not know Him. Do our catholic clerics really believe anything? Can we tell Cardinal George is dead?
Pretty shallow criticism to an article.
The approach Pope Francis uses is very similar to what Christ did. You and I can never read what is on someone’s heart. Christ called Peter who openly admitted, Lord I am a sinful man. Yet Christ called him anyway despite this. Christ openly and publicly invited sinners, the outcasts to dine with Him. Why? Because meeting people where they are at in their faith journey is how you win someone over. You don’t win someone over by publically shaming them or calling them out on something they may be struggling with or don’t fully understand. If Stephen Colbert comes to better understand the issue of abortion years from now, what will you say then? Again, you don’t know the private converations these men have. You can only assume. Being polarizing will actually have the opposite effect; it will turn someone away from the truth.
“Pretty shallow criticism to an article.”
Not as shallow as your substanceless comment D, especially considering the number of comments and the hits that the post has received.
“If Stephen Colbert comes to better understand the issue of abortion years from now, what will you say then?”
About time. Let us be clear what we are talking about here: Colbert is a defender of the slaying of children in the womb. In more morally sane times he would be regarded as a monster.
Colbert not only believes in murdering unborn children he’s a great promoter of homosexual “marriage”. I feel like throwing up anytime someone brings up Colbert’s “devout” Catholic faith. He”s just one more of the legion of cafeteria Catholics that give the faith a bad name. Father “We all go to heaven” Barron loves him because Father Barron is one of the biggest cheerleaders for the Church of Nice.
Am I missing something here? We’re gonna lambast Colbert’s character for a 2011 video and get pissed off at Bishop Elect Barron for not asking Colbert about his abortion position. Yet THIS video was posted March 2nd, 2015 and if I’m not mistaken the Planned Parenthood video’s of 2015 came out in late June.
Colbert is no saint but he’s done WAY more good for the Church than any other celebrity.
, By “shallow” I am referring to the near constant attempt to throw wayward darts towards church leaders who don’t discuss points as you wish. Seems your comments from the article by B. Barron are off base. Yes, it is tragic that Colbert shows the world two faces … a good catholic side and the ignorant PP side. Barron’s piece was not intended to be about Corbert nor all his positions. Clearly you know that, yet for the sake of a blog post choose to ignore it. My reading leaves me dissappointed in Colbert, not Barron.
“Colbert is no saint but he’s done WAY more good for the Church than any other celebrity.”
What a truly ludicrous statement.
It is ludicrous to use a pro-infanticide, pro-sodomy secular comedian of questionable talent as a example of fidelity to the Catholic Faith. If St Paul were on Earth today, then he would tell the Church to hand Colbert over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his soul might be saved on the last day.
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It is one thing to be a private person and have a moral failing, but you try to pick yourself up and do right. It is another to be a nationally reknown person professing values in public that are anathema to 2000 years of Church tradition. I do not care how much Colbert says he suffered with the death of whoever in his family. He supports the murder and vivisection of the unborn, and the filth of sterile sexual perversion that is destroying our society. That being the case, he has no clue of what real suffering is. Liberal. Progressive. Democrat. That is what he is.
How insightful Don – if only you would address the first point I made or perhaps enlighten us with whom you think is the best Catholic celebrity (distraction). Perhaps you prefer Mel Gibson – he’s never done ANYTHING embarrassing especially when we talk about Jews. Jim Carry? Ask him about vaccines! Many whom I’ve read about aren’t nearly as dedicated as Colbert whom has taught Sunday School and been far more public about his faith then others. Perhaps I’m biased from watching too many of his shows…BUT please do tell me how to judge people on content from 4 years ago. I’d love to hear how you answer relevant questions to future controversies/allegations/scandals. Or avoid empirical evidence that makes this article mute.