PopeWatch: Annulment Prime

Share on facebook
Facebook 0
Share on twitter
Twitter
Share on linkedin
LinkedIn 0
Share on reddit
Reddit 0
Share on delicious
Delicious
Share on digg
Digg
Share on stumbleupon
StumbleUpon 0
Share on whatsapp
WhatsApp
Share on email
Email
Share on print
Print

More to explorer

New Zealand Bans Freedom

  A terrorist nut goes on a rampage and a nation loses freedom:   In the wake of the horrific events coming

David Indemnity

  ENTER KING DAVID.  He should be reminiscent of Fred MacMurray in “Double Indemnity.”                                                                   DAVID                                     It’s not easy being

58 Comments

  1. I understand that the economics of this process will eventually cause a problem, in that two separate drones will be required to send annulment notices to both non-spousal units simultaneously in order to avoid any appearance of bias or favorability.
    The Vatican assured concerned members of the press that the cost will not be born by the customers themselves however as an annual collection will be taken up by all national bishop’s conferences–to be called the “Drones Matter” collection.

  2. A friend of mine got 2 annulments. I know a woman who got an annulment after 30 years of marriage and two grown children. She had fallen into adultery with a grade school flame after a class reunion.
    Annulments were a farce. Quicker annulments will be more farcical. How many struggling families did stay together by heeding Christ’s admonition? The church should teach what Christ taught. If one chooses to receive communion while unworthy (who isn’t) then let us remember Christ gave communion to Judas. The church must not allow itself to be split by denying the Word. Let all who would deny His teaching on marriage join the Lutherans. A second reformation is not needed. For those who are divorced unwillingly, an annulment may be apt since adultery has likely occurred.

  3. Coming “Out” in 2016 is the Kodacolor Prime.
    That’s Right!
    For the onslaught of Gay married couples who wish for New and improved marriages, the Kodacolor Prime is the Taylor made annulment for you!
    Sweet!

  4. This satire is too close to the truth to be ha-ha funny. On the serious side, I consider the new process to be a slap in the face to those of us who played by the rules, and were willing to accept the Church’s ruling that a previous marriage was still legally binding on us. Mine wasn’t, but this ‘merciful’ rule is going to provoke a lot of resentment among Catholics on both sides of the fence in a marriage mix-up. Imagine the hell that will break loose if a future Pope has to tighten up the rules to restore sanity to this mess.

  5. Yes annulments have been a farce under previous Popes also.

    It’s not so much the speed of the annulment that made them a joke, but rather, the fact that some people applied and successfully received an annulment after years of marriage and children, only because they wanted to remarry. I know of some.

    It’s a reality that some marriages cannot go on where the couple continue living under the same roof. What happened to separating and living a single celibate life dedicating oneself to raising children? Not jumping off to a new lover and pretending God has dissolved the vows you took because of a “technicality.”

    Annulments have been a farce in the Catholic Church for many years. This new speeding up the process is bad news for the Institution of Marriage.

    It would be far better for the Catholic Church to have tougher pre- marriage preparation classes that tested a couple much more aggressively to ensure THEY knew what they were getting themselves into before they decided to take their vows. This could prevent future divorces, cough cough, “annulments”.

  6. Premarital preparation will NOT, it WILL NOT, change the corrupted conscience of a person determined to leave their marriage. This is a BIG FALSEHOOD. It MIGHT yield some better initial understanding, THAT I could see. But the call of adultery and the call of vengeance are too attractive to the VAST MAJORITY of those in marital difficulties.

    PREMARITAL EDUCATION IS A SHOT IN THE DARK.

    Karl

  7. Folks, none of this matters to most American Catholics who are twice, thrice or more times married. They say nothing, go to Sunday Mass for appearance’s sake and receive Holy Communion, returning to their pews and never darkening the door of a Confessional. I would guess – and it is a guess – that 90% of divorced and remarried American Catholics do this if they attend Mass at all. No priest questions them, and there are no homilies about adultery or fornication or final judgment or hell. None. Zero. Zip point squat. And yes, I have seen this happen. There is no adult Catechesis, and children’s Catechesis is being done by these very same adults, and yes, I know personally that that is true. Adherence to the Gospel of repentence is a joke in the American Roman Church, but mention social justice and the common good, and these clerics are all over it like sink on $h1t.

  8. Karl, most people go into marriage naive- myself included. Some of these people have come from broken homes- like my husband. One sign of trouble and they want to throw in the towel.

    Marriage is HARD. The first 10 years is excruciatingly difficult. Most people do not realise this. They don’t realise that adversity in marriage, conflict, struggle is NORMAL. They assume it is a sign of a bad partner choice, and either leave or continue on an unhealthy path which ends in disaster, usually with children as a casualty.

    If they did know how difficult it is, they wouldn’t get married. Couples need to be made aware of this ESPECIALLY if they are from broken families. The Church needs to say this in pre-wedding prep.

    Our pre-wedding prep which was in the a maronite Catholic Church was laughable- it involved the Monsignor telling us that the Pill is wrong, but up to ones own conscience. What the?!!! If you have had bad Faith formation growing up, you’d float with the wind. I didn’t, thank God, so I was mortified. My husband on the other hand, a devout Catholic and better formed today, had no clue.

    The Pill (which damages relationships), prayer, confession, conflict resolution, in-laws (I’m not kidding here), prayer, prayer, confession, fidelity to one another, children, prayer, prayer, confession. These all need to be brought home- drilled- in marriage prep.

    And lastly, couples need to know that Marriage is a Sacrament. A Contract. And this contract cannot be broken. Even if we pretend, it cannot be broken.

    Yes, this is the responsibility of our Clergy. Some hard love BEFORE the marriage ceremony. By hard-love, I mean scare them.

    Divorce used to be a shameful word. If I came back to my parents divorced, they would have been mortified. At times, this forced me to keep going in hard times. And thank God I did. Three beautiful girls resulted, and our relationship is stronger.

    We all come from different backgrounds and upbringing, we need to teach our children and the Church needs to support us, that Marriage is serious. Who cares what the world tells us marriage is. We need to be confident and absolute in what this is.

    What has happened to us as a Faithful? We’ve become very weak as people.

    Sorry for my rant. We can’t give up, even if our Clergy seem to. We have to stay Faithful to God.

  9. With easy annulments Pope Francis did exactly the opposite of what he should have done. Right now the annulment process is a joke with just about anyone being approved. All that’s needed is the right story in the right words which the Church will provide help for you to create. In the eyes of this devilish process practically all marriages are annulable. This means that all marriages are most probably invalid, which means that most folks who think they are married are not. In other words, you only know you are married when your annulment is refused–a true catch 22. Pretty funny, eh? Not.

  10. And here I am, not born or raised in any faith, abusive first marriage, then found Christ in Protestant Evangelical church mid 30’s, baptized in the Trinity, then re-married a lapsed Catholic, we had no interest in being Catholic, surprise, after 9 years of marriage, drawn into Catholic faith, wow, awesome, what?, annulments needed, lots of complications, years going by, we don’t receive communion but long for Him so much, it’s an awful process to go through and definitely needs reform, was looking forward to that so maybe someday, communion at last…. but look how snarky so many are about it, tempted to give up and leave the church now, but – there He is, where else can we go 🙁

  11. Suzy, it is God who welcomes you into His Church.

    I have never seen a priest deny anyone The Blessed Sacrament- only the faithful choose not to receive Him because they are in a state of sin. I don’t receive communion when I feel I am not worthy. Not the person sitting next to me at Church, not my husband, or my children, or another person on a blog can determine this. Only I can examine my conscience to determine if I am worthy or not.

    “Snarkiness” never denied anyone The Blessed Host.

    It’s a matter-of-fact. Not snarkiness.

  12. ” …For those who are divorced unwillingly, an annulment may be apt since adultery has likely occurred….”

    Unless I’m mistaken, adultery alone is not justification to declare that a valid marriage ever took place….
    example: If your home burns down that doesn’t change the reality that you bought and owned it validly.

  13. Shawn Marshall

    A common reading of μὴ ἐπὶ πορνείᾳ, based on Hellenic Jewish usage, is that πορνείᾳ refers to a forbidden union.

    Thus, in the Septuagint translation of Deut 23:2, the Hebrew word מַמְזֵ֖ר [Mamzer] is translated as εκ πόρνης, literally “one born of a harlot.” Now, in Jewish law, a mamzer is a child born of a forbidden union, that is, one born of parents within the forbidden degrees of marriage specified in Leviticus 18:6-17, or of a married woman’s adultery.

    Again, we find St Paul using πορνείᾳ in 1 Cor 5 in reference to the man who had married his father’s wife. This would be very much in accordance with rabbinic usage.

    The sense of Matt 19:9 would thus be, “unless the union is a forbidden one.” It is clear enough that Our Lord is not referring to adultery, for He uses the ordinary Greek word for adultery – μοιχός in the same passage.

  14. Adultery is not grounds for annulment. Domestic violence is not grounds for an annulment. Alcohol, drug and gambling addiction are not grounds for annulment. Abortion is not even grounds for annulment. These are all sins that may occur within a valid marriage.

    An annulled marriage means it was not a “legit” contract in the first place ie. fraudulent marriages, lying about wanting children, lying about the reason for marriage, marrying for material gain, lying about what Faith one wants to bring children up in. If deception is involved then the contract is not valid.

    A non-Catholic marriage may or may not be valid. This would depend on intent, and is more complex. And remarriage into the Catholic Church is possible, provided the previous non-Catholic marriage was determined to be non-valid.

  15. Michael Dowd wrote, “This means that all marriages are most probably invalid, which means that most folks who think they are married are not…”

    One would hope that this is an exaggeration. Nevertheless, your comment calls to mind the words of a great Scottish lawyer, F W Walton, the author of the leading textbook on Husband and Wife: “It is a curious fact, though true, that there must always be… a considerable number of persons who could not say off-hand whether they were married or not. It is only when the question has been decided in a court of law that their doubts can be removed. But although they do not know if they are married, and no one could tell them with certainty till the action was tried, it is nevertheless true that they must be either one or the other. There is no half-way house.”

    If marriage requires the consent, the meeting of minds, of two people, that is simply unavoidable.

  16. I understand the substance of the point being made in this post, but the way it’s being conveyed seems a little too close to the “seat of the scoffers” to me. If the goal is to create genuine discourse, talking about ideas based on the face value of their merits is probably the most widely accepted (and charitable) way. Satire can be a powerful tool for drawing attention to a problem by framing it in a more stylized light. But, while snark and derision are admittedly powerful tools (and, perhaps ironically, very commonly wielded by the secular American left), I have a hard time believing it’s in the spirit of Christ to resort to them. We should speak the Truth with purity and charity. That’s just my opinion, and I mean no offense.

  17. Marriage is HARD. The first 10 years is excruciatingly difficult. Most people do not realise this. They don’t realise that adversity in marriage, conflict, struggle is NORMAL.

    Rather florid, ma’am. Give it a rest.

  18. Art Deco is correct, Ezabelle. If marriage were excruciatingly hard, then I would not do it. Yes, it tequires hard work and determination and most of all love. Because of love I am married.
    .
    Now what is excrucistingly hard? Calibrating the Power Range Nuclear Instrumentation on a 688 class nuclear submarine surfaced in the North Atlantic in winter time, and you have been on patrol for two months and you got two months to go, and you’re one of the only two qualified reactor operators aboard, serving port and starboard duty. Now that is excrucuatingly hard.

  19. I said the first 10 years were excruciatingly hard. For me they were. For many I know it was. For various reasons. Not all the time, but enough of the time.

    Congratulations if it wasn’t for you Paul. But people throw in the towel when it gets hard- not cause its blissful. You’re out of touch with many young couples today.

  20. Just a tangential thought. Thinking you would be a better spouse with a different partner is like thinking you would be a better violinist with a different fiddle. As for me, my wife is a Stradivarius of a woman belonging to a fiddler who is not ready for Carnegie Hall. How do you get there? Practice – Practice – Practice.

  21. Excruciatingly hard is cancer whilst raising 3 young children (the youngest 6 months old), severe depression, being married to someone from a broken childhood/alcoholic father who drank himself till his liver burst with emotional scars, financial struggle and crappy in-laws.

  22. Ezabelle, my apologies. Apparently you have gone through the Cross. Regarding abusive alcoholic spouses, I told my completely non-alcoholic spouse to leave me post haste if I ever drink or drug again, and not to look back. I was given that very instruction early on in my sobriety in a 12 step program almost 3 decades ago, and Al Anon members may often be told the same – never tolerate staying in an abusive alcoholic relationship. My sponsor kept it simple for me: “You are not Christ crucified, so don’t pretend to be Chirist crucified.” That said, I am no theologian and hence am not qualified to determine how active alcoholism or drug addiction figures into the annulment process. But the bottom line is that my personal sobriety, and the safety and security especially of women and children come first. If that means divorce, then so be it. Drunks and dope fiends do not belong in relationships, and I speak from personal experience.

  23. But people throw in the towel when it gets hard- not cause its blissful. You’re out of touch with many young couples today.

    No, most people who initiate divorce proceedings have an accumulation of small complaints.

  24. “No, most people who initiate divorce proceedings have an accumulation of small complaints.”

    No. It’s not “most”- where’s your proof- Surely not Entertainment Tonight. Infidelity is far from a “small complaint”. Fact of the matter, if someone was happy they don’t get divorced for the hoot of it.

  25. Excruciatingly hard is cancer whilst raising 3 young children (the youngest 6 months old), severe depression, being married to someone from a broken childhood/alcoholic father who drank himself till his liver burst with emotional scars, financial struggle and crappy in-laws.

    You’re really not describing an ordinary accumulation of problems. That aside, there are six items on your list. The two for which marriage would be a necessary condition would be your in-laws and problems derived from them. Morbid alcoholism is characteristic of maybe 1 person in 100. Your children are derived from your marriage (not everyone’s are), but you’re not going to find it any simpler to rear them shorn of a husband.

  26. No. It’s not “most”- where’s your proof-

    I’ve immersed myself in the sociological and demographic literature on this question. My bibliography is off line, and, several moves later, It would be a project to locate it. The probability of divorce has associations with a mess of ecological factors, such as the degree of demographic churn in an area and certain cultural metrics. It’s an act strongly influenced by matrix. As for the social survey self-reports on why people initiate proceedings, it varies over time and varies between men and women. DIstinct and specific complaints (e.g. adultery and alcoholism) amounted to about 1/3 of the total self-reports the last set of descriptive statistics I looked at. Vague complaints (‘abuse’), feelings of being taken for granted, &c. form the lion’s share.

  27. if someone was happy they don’t get divorced for the hoot of it.

    Madam, most people are sometimes happy, sometimes not, and, quite commonly, addled about the sources of one or the other, about their actual realistic prospects in this world, and about what they should reasonably expect from others. Leads to a great many bad decisions.

  28. “You’re really not describing an ordinary accumulation of problems. That aside, there are six items on your list.”

    Health issues and “baggage” from childhood are “ordinary” problems occurring in marriage. Your “normal” is not normal today. Your husband/comment was left field. Most children are from a marriage.

    Funny how you pick and choose what’s “normal” to suit your argument.

  29. To say “most” is an exaggeration Art Deco. You should have used “some”. People don’t get divorced if they are happy.

  30. The only thing I’m with you on, is that more need to see the long haul of marriage through, and divorce is an easy option.

  31. Paul, and you have gone through the cross also. My prayers and admiration at your will to remain sober. Addiction leaves its mark on generations far beyond our own. God Bless you abundantly.

  32. Alcoholism is worse than the 1 out of 100 figure that Art Deco put forward:

    There was a modifier on that, Paul, derived from her description of her in-laws. There are many drunks. There are few people who drink themselves to death or kill themselves in drunken car wrecks.

  33. Health issues and “baggage” from childhood are “ordinary” problems occurring in marriage. Your “normal” is not normal today. Your husband/comment was left field. Most children are from a marriage.

    Madam, you described one ordinary background condition, three atypical background conditions, one common (but not typcially abiding) problem, and one discrete and unusual problem, as running simultaneously. No, most people’s lives are not like that. They have their problems ad seriatim. Neither would such an accumulation be a function of one’s marriage. The marriage is the setting of the problems, not the cause of the problems.

  34. Thanks for the link to actual statistics Paul. The numbers are quite sad.

    When Art Deco fixes his computer he’ll be able to go back and immerse himself in literature of the demographically and sociological nature. Hopefully not from the 1920’s where he remains stuck.

  35. Madam? Why feign respect? These problems are typical of many marriages. They put strain in a marriage.

    Keep going.

  36. http://www.divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/lesson3.pdf
    – 40-50% of first marriages in America end in divorce. 60% second marriages end in divorce.
    – Lack of commitment 73%
    – Infidelity 55%
    – Not enough Marriage education 41%
    – Abuse 29%
    – 20-30% of people that use the internet use it for sexual purposes.
    – 31%divorced men wished they tried harder to salvage their marriage.
    – If a spouse comes from a divorced family, their risk of divorce is doubled.

    http://m.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer

    2009-2011 stats from American Cancer Society states estimates that 43% men (averages around 1 in 2) have a risk of developing cancer. 37% (averages around 1 in 3) of women have a risk of developing cancer. Contrary to your outdated stars, Cancer is very “normal” in the 21st century.

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0
    Illness is not caused by marriage as you stupidly stated. In burdens a marriage.
    21% in this study marriages ended in separation or divorce when the wife became ill.

  37. Art Deco wrote, “most people who initiate divorce proceedings have an accumulation of small complaints.”
    Parva si non fiunt quotidie – These things would be trifling, had they not to be endured daily (Pliny Minor, Ep. 3.1)

  38. Ezabelle wrote, “Most children are from a marriage.” Not first children.
    In France, 44% of all births are out of wedlock, including 56% of the births of first children. I doubt that the figures for the US are very different

  39. Thanks MPS- Not surprised about those figures in France- isn’t infidelity a cultural norm? I wouldn’t think the US is close to those figures…Id be surprised if it were…

  40. Thanks for the link to actual statistics Paul. The numbers are quite sad. When Art Deco fixes his computer

    The term, madam, was ‘morbid alcoholism’. About 2.5 million people die in this country every year. Of these, 18.000 die of alcoholic cirrhosis. Roughly 8,000 or so are alcoholics who die in road wrecks. You can add a few thousand more from nephrosclerosis and esophageal haemorrhaging. That tallies to 1% or 1.5% of those who shuffle off this moral coil each year. The distinction between that and ordinary alcoholism is not difficult to grasp.

    Thanks MPS- Not surprised about those figures in France- isn’t infidelity a cultural norm?

    The original statement, Ezabelle was “Your children are derived from your marriage (not everyone’s are),” There is no statement of proportions therein. As is, about 40% of the children in the United States are out of wedlock, including the majority of first-borns. The situation is not much different from that in France. Some children are legitimated post partum and some legitimate children are born into households wherein there are children from the mother’s previous trysts. The effect of these two qualifying factors is about a wash.

  41. – 40-50% of first marriages in America end in divorce. 60% second marriages end in divorce.

    The number of divorce decrees issued each year is equal to 40% or so of new marriages contracted. The latter figure has not been subject to much secular increase. So, 40% is about the lifetime probability of dissolution for the generic marriage. It’s lower for 1st marriages.

  42. I think Art Deco is correct in his analysis of the statistics, but I would add that alcoholism left unchecked and no matter how benign initially always leads to one of three places:
    .
    Insane Asylum
    Jail
    Death (via disease or self-initiated accident)
    .
    I used to go to 12 step out going meetings at a State Penitentiary. I heard from various people that 90% of those in prison were drinking or drugging when they committed the crime which put them in prison. My 12 sponsor always told me that the only difference between me and the people in the jail cells whom we were visiting was that they got caught and I did not.
    .
    Back to the topic of marriage and divorce – I wonder how alcohol and drug abuse figure into divorce. In fact, if pornography is an addiction, then include that too. I remember a Franciscan Friar told me early on in my sobriety that sexual self-gratification is just another way to get high and you can’t be high and sober at the same time. So how many divorces occur because of that need to get high? Considering the hedonism and licentiousness to which the nation is addicted, what difference is there really between addiction to alcohol and drugs, and addiction to unrestrained sexual gratification. Sure, the latter is not moribund alcoholism, but it sure as heck is moribund. I see a lot of parallels between the obsession and compulsion of today’s pelvic craziness and what Dr William Silkwood called in the preface to the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous the obsession and compulsion of an alcoholic always needing that first drink. It’s a good thing I had a strong sponsor whose sponsor in turn was a Franciscan priest who was my Confessor. Of course, at the time I did not know that the priest to whom my sponsor sent me for Confession was his sponsor. It was a plot, I tell you – a conspiracy! 😉 We need more conspiracies like that to save marriages and save lives.

  43. Madam? Why feign respect?

    Mr. Edwards, Mr. McClarey, and Dr. Zummo have their standards and practices. I do not think they’d be terribly amused if I spoke to you in the way you’ve earned and deserve. They’ve elected to allow you to conduct yourself in an adolescent manner in this discussion, and that’s their prerogative.

    This began with a suggestion that you give it a rest. Aside from confounding the whole range of human problems people may have while married with marital problems, you manifest an inexcusably poor command of English usage. If you fancy that ordinary domestic life, even a domestic life carried on in the face of actual marital problems, is ‘excruciatingly hard’, you have no conception of what ‘excruciatingly hard’ is. If you’re not a migrant farm worker, living on the street, living in some viperous slum, or afflicted with some wretched chronic illness, give it a rest. This woman’s life, and that of her mother, would be excruciatingly hard right now:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/09/pray-for-mandy-nagy/

  44. This exchange is excruciating. More so for those reading it.

    I feel sorry for that lady and daughter you linked to- honestly. Suffering isn’t a competition, but if it were, they would win. Bingo!

    The topic was about annulment.

    My point: If people were made aware of the struggles of marriages, divorce rates might be lower- Catholic couples would be better equipped and avoid a lot of heartache, regardless of what adversity was thrown their way. THAT was my point, incase it wasn’t clear. I’m a little deflated right now that I lost a valuable day arguing this and it has gotten lost on you. (Is “gotten” ok to use?).

    Your convoluted responses don’t intimidate me, because you lack substance.

    Continue to sit back and wait to pounce- on someone’s writing style or personal testimony…rather than arguing the topic at hand, or offering a solution. The world needs more individuals like you.

    My little brain hurts right now. I’ll go back to work on my command of the English language. Sir!

  45. Paul, Interesting comment on the different kinds of highs. From our diocese website on pornography addiction: married women view pornography use by their husbands as the equivalent of adultery.
    It’s a hidden addiction that most likely wouldn’t surface in marriage prep.

Comments are closed.