Thursday, March 28, AD 2024 11:33am

PopeWatch: Open Thread

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The usual open thread rules apply:  be concise, be charitable and, above all, be amusing!

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Philip
Philip
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 4:15am

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/09/26/thousands-of-people-march-to-celebrate-abortion-and-legalize-abortions-in-ireland/

If the unborn were classified as immigrants in search of a safe haven, then possibly Pope Francis could speak out against the oppressors that IS feminism.

Please pray for Ireland. Our ancestors are counting on you.

Sorry Don. Nothing amusing this morning from my armchair.

Michael Dowd
Michael Dowd
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 7:03am

Holy Father, admit it all and do a Flip Wilson for us.

Mary De Voe
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 7:47am

To disenfranchise the Blessed Virgin Mary of her membership in the human race is irreligion = atheism. The NEW Natural Law is slithering, insidious, calumnious, disingenuous and dis-value =evil atheism. The only benefit from dis-value=evil atheism is that there is none. Evil must be avoided at all costs. Dis-value denies the original innocence into which all men in the human race are created. The Virgin Mary willed to sublimate her whole being to the will of God from the very first moment of existence. Created in original innocence as were Adam and Eve, as are all human beings, Mary maintained her original innocence in humble acknowledgement of God, her Creator. All future generations, our constitutional Posterity, are created in original innocence and must be accorded the benefit of community to maintain their original innocence. The purpose of the state is “to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our (constitutional) Posterity.” The Preamble
To disenfranchise the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the perfect human Person from gentile society is to bring forth brutes and bestial behavior. To disenfranchise God, “their Creator” from His Intellectual Property is the height of evil and is practiced by the devil.
The devil is NOT an atheist. The devil uses atheism to seduce man into refusing to acknowledge God, “their Creator” and the perfect Virgin, Mary and the divine Son of God, Jesus Christ.
With my apology to Professor Robert P. George whom I love and admire immensely. The New Natural Law theory brings to mind The Emperor’s New Clothes.
Thank you, Donald McClarey for this opportunity to share my thoughts on the NEW Natural Law Theory. It is not amusing but it bears the TRUTH.

Elizabeth Fitzmaurice
Elizabeth Fitzmaurice
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 8:23am

In case you’ve not seen this yet: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/09/important-international-declaration-of.html

I’ve signed it and tweeted it and it’s already gaining notice on Twitter amongst Catholics.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 9:36am

Frankly (rimshot!), my attitude towards the Pope is turning towards a shrugging indifference. It’s clear he’s a Martini-esque termite doing his level best to make sure the Church catches up with the times. And by that, I mean endorse the worst ideas of fifty years ago and chop the Magisterium to flinders so it can be reassembled to fit the New Paradigm.

And since everyone seem content to let him do so with either ringing cheers or a “resistance” that is naught but open letters or behind-doors-kvetching, my attitude towards Catholicism is closely matching my growing indifference to Bergoglio.

CAM
CAM
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 10:45am

Well, Dale, I am asking an earnest question: In addition to prayer and open letters, what can orthodox Catholics do to stop the continuing damage to our Faith? There’s always keeping our wallets and pocket books closed, but how far will that reach?

Art Deco
Art Deco
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 11:21am

And since everyone seem content to let him do so with either ringing cheers or a “resistance” that is naught but open letters or behind-doors-kvetching, my attitude towards Catholicism is closely matching my growing indifference to Bergoglio.

In the local novus ordo parish here, they’ve just stopped talking about anything Francis says. I’m not sure the better bishops and priests quite know how to proceed at this point. The problems they’re facing have not presented themselves since the late middle ages.

Pinky
Pinky
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 11:57am

It used to be that most people didn’t even realize it when we had bad popes. I miss those days (not that I lived through them). I miss the days when the priests’ personalities were subordinate to the rituals of the Mass.

I’d much rather see a pope move back toward being an administrator rather than a personality. Of course, the most important trait for a pope is sanctity. But the Church could really use a manager-type, both for the managerial benefit and to de-emphasize the celebrity role.

Philip
Philip
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 12:01pm

E.F.

Thanks for the link.
Signed.
Cardinal Burke, ninth signature. 🙂

@Mary De Voe.
Beautiful description and explanation of Natural Law v New Natural Law, aka the emperor’s new clothes.
They can fake it all they want…they will Never make it. Never.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 12:21pm

“Well, Dale, I am asking an earnest question: In addition to prayer and open letters, what can orthodox Catholics do to stop the continuing damage to our Faith? There’s always keeping our wallets and pocket books closed, but how far will that reach?”

I have no clue. And turning off the funding to a decent parish basically just hurts the parish, so I can’t recommend that.

I imagine nothing will happen because nobody with a lick of actual authority will even admit there’s a problem. Normalcy bias reigns supreme even as the Jesuit Pope keeps planting explosives and remaking the episcopate in his image.

Shrug. Naught for it.

Greg Mockeridge
Greg Mockeridge
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 12:34pm

Dale, I certainly sympathize with your view. If it weren’t for Catholicism, I would have left the Catholic Church years ago.

Don the Kiwi
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 1:02pm

How about “THE GREAT VATICAN DEBATE” in a more traditional debate form ?
The Proposition: “That the Church return to the Traditional Values, and deny Modernism.”

The team for the Affirmative: Cdl.Raymond Bourke, Cdl. Sarah, ArchBp. Athanasius Schneider.
The Team for the Negative: Pope Francis Bergoglio, Cdl. Walter Kaspar, Cdl Timothy Dolan.

That would be a debate worth tuning in to !! 🙂

Philip
Philip
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 1:12pm

Don the Kiwi.

Good choices.
I’m all for it.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 1:22pm

I’m not counseling anyone to depart. I’m just venting my personal tiredness with it all. In practice, Catholicism is nothing more than the canvas upon which the reigning pontiff can unleash his inner Pollock. If he’s in tune with Tradition, that’s good, and if he’s not, that’s nice, too. People cheer it either way and chaps with mitres trim accordingly. It’s business.

bill bannon
bill bannon
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 2:58pm

Jean Paul Sartre, the atheist existentialist, said of Jean Genet in ” Saint Genet..Martyr and Actor”….” this is the author we never wanted to hear from

bill bannon
bill bannon
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 3:08pm

similarly…this is the Pope we never wanted to hear from.

The Bear
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 5:22pm

Bear also so sick of this Pope he can no longer even properly mock him. He watches the Pope Videos and his eyes glaze over. When the salmon literally jump into your mouth, it takes the fun out of it. He doesn’t bother with them anymore because they’re boring. They’re boring in the same way Francis is boring, liberals are boring, atheists are boring and fanatics are boring, He’s totally predictable and void of original though. The Bear respectfully suggests he’s doing more damage than the host of this ephemeris, Dr. McClarey thinks, however. The “we’ve had bad popes before” argument is invalid because it does not take into account the cultural contexts of “before” and “now.” A bad pope “now” is far worse than a bad pope “before” because “before” the Church was still sound in belief and practice. It was not infested with homosexuals (although there were some, of course). The culture of the West was still favorable to the idea of the Church, instead of implacably hostile to Christianity. The pope’s every random non-orthodox thought was not broadcast through the world instantly. Francis is doing tremendous damage. (Bear stipulates Church miraculously preserved).

Pinky
Pinky
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 5:39pm

There’s a difference between being excited about the Pope and being excited about the Church. We’re obligated on the latter (with a proper understanding of the word “Church”).

Greg Mockeridge
Greg Mockeridge
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 5:43pm

Pinky, one is not obliged to be “excited” about the Church. We are obliged to accept and adhere to her teaching. One doesn’t even have to like it or be excited about it.

Penguin Fan
Penguin Fan
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 6:10pm

As for this Pontificate, it, too will pass.
Perseverance is a must.

As I have pointed out ad infinitum, my ancestry is Polish. Poland has been attacked by the Mongol Horde, the Teutonic Knights, the Swedish Army (the Deluge), the Ottoman Empire, Prussia, Russia, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union TWICE. Poland survived the Deluge, the Partition, the Holocaust and the Iron Curtain.
Tell me what other nation could endure more and still exist.
Poland exists today because of its Catholic faith and stubborn perseverance against all odds.
This is an example for us all to follow. The current Pontiff is sneaky and nasty but is an intellectual lightweight. Ignore him and soldier on.

Penguin Fan
Penguin Fan
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 6:25pm

Per Breitbart, three Catholic priests were murdered in Mexico and their bodies were found this week.
Kylie Eleison.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Tuesday, September 27, AD 2016 10:17pm

I understand all the old apologetic arguments, but…they’re all the old apologetic arguments.

They work really nicely on paper, but this isn’t the horny bad pope or the greedy bad pope–this is the Suicide Bomber Pope. He’s deliberately assaulting the sacraments and settled moral teaching here. He might have canonized JPII, but he’s cynically undermining JPII’s reaffirmation of basic Catholic morality.

And the response of his so-called brothers is to stand-by and watch him do it. Yes, they’ve said oblique Romanitas-flavored stuff about levels of teaching, etc. But like the French Generals in June 1940, they are fighting the last war–and they’re losing. He’s perfectly content to let them fume, so long as he has perfect freedom of action. And so he does. And so, marriage, penance and the Eucharist are being eaten away by the moths of Amoris Laetitia. Because pope. Suggesting that, in reality (and regardless of what catechisms and other supposed authorities say to the contrary) it is indeed the papal cult that the fulminating blowhard Luther said it was. The Words of Christ? Feh. We have an Argentine Jesuit’s authoritative correction of the Son of God now.

I guess I’m just taking my cues from the so-called shepherds. When they start acting like it’s an emergency, then maybe I’ll care. So far, forget the snooze bar–the entire alarm clock has been unplugged. In the meantime, Catholicism is turning Episcopalian–only with worse music. Four years ago, that would have horrified me–not to mention have been laughable. But here we are–and I’ve just about lost the ability to care.

Give it another couple of months, and I’ll be sure of it.

Michael Paterson-Seymour
Michael Paterson-Seymour
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 4:44am

Pinky wrote, “I’d much rather see a pope move back toward being an administrator rather than a personality”
We tried it for the best part of three hundred years.

From Sixtus V, who died in 1590, to Leo XIII, who was elected in 1878, we had a virtually unbroken succession of popes, who had risen through the ranks of the Vatican bureaucracy and who were, by habit, taste and training, administrators. Even Benedict XIV, better remembered today as Prospero Lambertini, the great canon lawyer, fits this mould.

It is not unfair to describe the result as one of assiduous mediocrity. Even in Catholic countries, they had the same impact and the same popular appeal, as the average Secretary-General of the United Nations or President of the World Bank

Meanwhile, we had the Church riven by the Thirty Years War, the Quietist controversy, the Jansenist heresy, the Gallican controversy, Josephism, the suppression of the Jesuits, the French Revolution and its aftermath, and the Risorgimento, in none of which can the Holy See be said to have distinguished itself to the point that the 19th century popes were dependant on Austrian or French troops to maintain their rule over their sullen or mutinous subjects.

Thirty popes and not a Leo or a Gregory, a Hildebrand or an Innocent III amongst them; the very suggestion seems absurd. Benedict XIV can fairly be ranked with Innocent IV as a canonist and with Leo X and Clement VII for his learning and he appears as a giant in that age of pygmies.
Here is a simple test: was the period one of growth or decline in the authority of the Holy See and in the influence of the Church?

Dale Price
Dale Price
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 8:09am

Maybe it’s despair, Don. Dunno. I have “enjoyed” that before, and it seems to be different now.

The bottom line is that the Bergoglio Project is Catholic, or at least good enough for government work. In light of the top-to-bottom acquiescence of the Catholic episcopate, who am I to say otherwise?

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 8:14am

One Ave Maria for Philip.

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 8:23am

Death fixes our relationship with God for eternity. Therefore, the saints in heaven do not change. The saints in heaven, the just on earth and the suffering in purgatory are the Catholic Church. At the Descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles, Mary, Mother of the Church was present. Mary the Virgin Mother of God and our Mother does not vacillate from the TRUTH, Her Son, Jesus Christ before all ages.
Pope Francis is not even a good administrator. Pope Francis denies the timelessness of TRUTH. Pope Francis is a deathbed convert.

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 8:41am

“But that you owe obedience to your King is not capable of question. So weigh a doubt against a certainty — and sign.”
When the king falls into error and sin, the king loses his sovereignty and his sovereign personhood before God and man. The king without sovereignty over himself falls beneath the animals as animals are innocent, that is, not capable of reason and evil. The sinner becomes a demon. Demons must be exorcised by the truth. All crimes are sins. The sinner must become a deathbed convert to recapture, to re-establish his sovereign personhood, the image of God in himself before he faces God or God cannot recognize the man.

Art Deco
Art Deco
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 9:40am

I’m not seeing ‘top-to-bottom’ acquiescence. Francis was quite publicly peeved with the resistance he received at the synod. What I’d like to see and have not is episcopal critiques of Francis’ vandalism.

Well, here’s one bishop. Rather he was a tad closer to home.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/06/09/bishop-urges-catholics-to-affirm-truths-undermined-in-amoris-laetitia/

bill bannon
bill bannon
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 9:41am

The flattery of Francis by Benedict is for me the more toxic phenomenon. One doesn’t expect much from Francis’ brain but one did expect Benedict to correct Francis or express opposite insights without mentioning Francis by name at a minimum. Nothing…..and I hope Benedict’s hidden motive is not fear of getting kicked out of the Vatican digs.

Dale Price
Dale Price
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 10:28am

“I’m not seeing ‘top-to-bottom’ acquiescence. Francis was quite publicly peeved with the resistance he received at the synod. What I’d like to see and have not is episcopal critiques of Francis’ vandalism.”

I see what you’re saying, and yes–Francis threw a tantrum in his closing speech. But since then, it’s been treated as a fait accompli. Rather like most American Catholic bishops’ response to Obergefell. And no response at all to Francis’s pulling the rug out from underneath them with the letter to his Argentine cronies.

And, yes, there’s been the auxiliary bishop from Kazakhstan, and the three bishops in Lefebvre’s Society who have spoken out.

Apart from that? Just attempts to say that Francis didn’t say what he clearly has said (on any number of issues) and trying to fit him into the orthodox mold of his predecessors. Which, at the end of the day, are gaslighting by any other name. Even if from the best of motives.

Art Deco
Art Deco
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 1:41pm

and I hope Benedict’s hidden motive is not fear of getting kicked out of the Vatican digs.

I suspect Benedict’s more a prisoner than anything else. I’m not satisfied with his explanation of the sequence of events. Other than his (older) brother, Benedict’s only proximate relations live in Australia, and they’re rank-and-file people without any pull. I don’t think they can intercede for him at all.

Art Deco
Art Deco
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 1:46pm

It is not unfair to describe the result as one of assiduous mediocrity.

Assiduous mediocrity is what we usually get from our diocesan bishops. After the last 3 years, assiduous mediocrity would be a tremendous improvement.

Ernst Schreiber
Ernst Schreiber
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 2:24pm

I don’t think it’s gaslighting to interpret official texts by the hermeneutic of continuity. I think it’s the only way to remain sanguine. The teaching authority of the airplane presser, person to person phone call, personal letter and informal on the record chat with a reporter who refuses to take notes has all the validity of the miracle of Our Lady of the Burnt Wholewheat Toast.

FMShyanguya
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 9:26pm

As false as the come.

FMShyanguya
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 9:27pm

As false as they come.

FMShyanguya
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 9:30pm

“I saw a great power rise up against the Church. It plundered, devastated, and threw into confusion and disorder the vine of the Lord, having it trampled underfoot by the people and holding it up to ridicule by all nations. Having vilified celibacy and oppressed the priesthood, it had the effrontery to confiscate the Church’s property and to arrogate to itself the powers of the Holy Father, whose person and whose laws it held in contempt. – Jeanne le Royer (Sister of the Nativity) | Catholic Prophecy, Yves DuPont

(My emphasis)

.Anzlyne
.Anzlyne
Wednesday, September 28, AD 2016 10:47pm

Jeremiah 5:30-31
An appalling and horrible thing has happened in the land: the prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule as the prophets direct; my people love to have it so,
but what will you do when the end comes?

FMShyanguya
Thursday, September 29, AD 2016 12:33pm

@.Anzlyne RE: Jeremiah, a prophet for our times.

Mary De Voe
Thursday, September 29, AD 2016 8:33pm

Isaiah 50:8-9
Our Fifth Amendment. Habeas Corpus, trial by jury, no trial in absentia. Our Constitutional Principles are found in the Bible. If the Bible and the freedom of religion is obliterated so is man’s sovereignty over himself and man’s power to institute the state with his sovereign personhood. This is the devil’s work, starting with man made laws that presuppose to be God’s laws.

Mary De Voe
Thursday, September 29, AD 2016 8:37pm

for example:
SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND MAN’S COMPLAINT.
SOGI LAW Sexual orientation is a gift from God for all eternity. Gender identity is man‘s invention of a temporary nature. Why must any law bend to a finite and fallible, temporary invention of man’s as though gender identity is an eternal truth. It runs contrary to common sense and the common good. Laws must be based on truth, the whole truth and NOTHING but the truth, so help me God. The rest is imposition of atheism against the First Amendment and unconstitutional taxation without representation, denying the official representation of constituents as taxpayers, taxpayers who maintain all possession of their tax dollars even while their taxes are administered by the administration.
Before atheism can be eradicated from our midst, sovereign persons must seize their freedom by all four corners and shake the atheism from our nations, our courts and our laws.

Philip
Philip
Friday, September 30, AD 2016 4:28am

@ Mary De Voe.

Your explanations are appreciated. I’m
in complete agreement and I’m pondering on your conclusion.

How do we collectively get from here to there?
From a insidious wave of false mercy, back to the Truth that ushered in foundation principals that built the United States of America that was once honorable and morally worthy to lead.

This task of returning to the values that made America shine brightly in the darkness seems enormous. The public opinion, saturated by biased media, has swelled in favor of disordered conduct as well as promotion of depravity to the point of Obama’s bathroom policy.

We see the nude emperor….but so many people think his clothing is brilliant.
Not his alone…but the clothing of a “inteligencia ala’ Liberalism.”

Mary De Voe
Friday, September 30, AD 2016 8:21am

@Philip:
Thank you for reading my comment. By impressing upon the political class our Founding Principles, that instituted our nation and that will keep our nation great. Like Holy Scripture, the truth is all there.
Either our officials, only an office, maintain our Founding Principles or they disenfranchise themselves and lose their sovereign personhood and their citizenship by their own consent. By holding their feet to the fire, as well as we might, with God’s help. God loves His adopted children and those who still must be brought into existence as our constitutional Posterity. By forcing public servants to know our Founding Principles or forfeit their office, president, judge or tax collector.

Elizabeth Fitzmaurice: The Declaration is true except for this, I could not post this comment on the website so here it is: God’s name is: “I AM WHO I AM”, The Supreme Sovereign Being, Being.
The King James version of the Bible refers to God as a thing, a “that” and a “which” denying the WHONESS of God, denying the soul of Christ WHO is.
This document denies the “whoness” of all human beings, referring to men as “that”, denying the souls of men.
In principle the document is true. Denying the souls of men, the document fails.

Philip
Philip
Friday, September 30, AD 2016 6:42pm

@Mary De Voe.

“By forcing public servants to know our Founding Principals or forfeit their office…”

Excellent idea!

Implementation can be done by service of law.(?). Write and enforce the law. Yes, No?

Mary De Voe
Wednesday, October 5, AD 2016 8:12am

Philip: OCT 5 John 8: 13-19 A discussion on the testimony of Jesus to himself: “the One WHO sent me is with Me and in your Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid. I may be testifying on my own behalf, but my Father Who sent Me is my witness too.” The Jerusalem Bible
Two witnesses establish a judicial fact in a Court of law even to this day. In THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE of THE UNITED STATES ratified by every state, the will of the people to be free “…the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God entitle them…”…the people give testimony to ourselves through the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God is our witness too. “And for the support of this DECLARATION with a firm reliance on the protection on divine Providence…” Again, we testify on our own behalf and the Holy Spirit, the third Person of God gives witness. Two witnesses establish a judicial fact, in time and in eternity.
The First Amendment to our Constitution testifies on our behalf and “Nature’s God” gives witness to the peoples’ freedom in their exercise of their legal, civil rights to speak, write, and peaceably assemble for “their Creator”
“the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God” testify and give witness to human rights, innate and inherent, in the sovereign person, body and soul. “the Laws of Nature” testify to the metaphysical, rational, human soul and the rational soul’s free will, intellect and conscience. “Nature’s God”, The Supreme Sovereign Being, “their Creator”, gives witness to free will, intellect and conscience of the sovereign person.
The sovereign person becomes a citizen at birth. The sovereign person, newly begotten, institutes the state from the very first moment of existence through his perfect legal and moral innocence.
Satan’s war on God now becomes Satan’s war against man.
The New Natural Law Theory is the separation of “the Laws of Nature” from “Nature’s God.” Satanic atheism. “Do not even touch the apple…”
Who we are is the image of God in original innocence, free will, intellect and conscience. What we do in accord with God or in disobedience to God is who we become. The soul is the form of the body and the body becomes whoever the soul is. Saints have the odor of sanctity. Murderers wear their victims on their face. See: Kermit Gosnell, in prison for killing innocent, born citizens of the state, God’s adopted children. In the olden days, before prisons, the murderer was forced to wear his victim’s corpse on his back until the rotting corpse killed him.
Obergefell has human dignity. Obergefells’ sin, the addiction to sodomy, does not have human dignity. Good judgement.
Thank you, Donald McClarey for open thread

Philip
Philip
Wednesday, October 5, AD 2016 4:04pm

Great lesson Mary.
Thanks.

Wearing the corpses of the ones murdered.. incredible. What a deterrent! Might make a young woman or man think before encouraging abortions. Or having premarital sex.

“The soul is the form of the body and the body becomes whatever the soul is.”
Brilliant. Thanks Mary.

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