Hattip to Jay Anderson at Pro Ecclesia. With a sense of irony I would admire under other circumstances, President Obama has appointed anti-Catholic bigot Harry Knox to the Advisory Council on Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Mr. Knox is a gay-rights activist and detests the Catholic Church. These stories here, here, here, and here have some interesting quotes from Mr. Knox.
Now why would Obama, other than the fact that I am sure he agrees with him, appoint a man like this to a position where he is sure to be a lightning rod for criticism? Here are some of the reasons I can think of:
1. Poor staff work.
2. Living inside of an ideological bubble where Knox is just repeating what everyone believes.
3. A deliberate slap in the face to the Catholic Church.
4. A belief that Catholics in this country will take any insults without kicking up a fuss.
5. Total arrogance.
6. With Notre Dame honoring him with a commencement address and an honorary degree, Obama might reasonably conclude that he has a stronger following among Catholics in this country than the Pope does, and that he can do whatever he wants and many Catholics in the US will cheer.
It’s going to be a very long four years fellow Catholics. Hope and Change.
It is incredible that you tag anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church’s teachings on a given subject “anti-Catholic.” There is nothing “anti-Catholic” in Knox’s statements that you have cited. As you seem to be a disciple of Donohue in this little tendency of yours, I hope you understand why it is becoming more and more difficult to take any word you write seriously.
Mr McClarey,
None of the quotes you provide succeeds in revealing the man as a bigot. He may disagree with the Church’s teachings on homosexuality,marriage and condoms, but that hardly puts him in the category of anti-Catholic bigot. Under your logic, half of the mainline Protestant clergyman and laity would bt anti-Catholic bigots.
While these posts may make you momentarily relieve your desire to express yourself as being generally offended or outraged, they offer all heat and no light. And I surmise, based on the frequency of such posts, that the satisfaction they offer is only fleeing.
Couldn’t disagree with you more Mr. DeFrancisis. The man is a bigot. A man who calls an attempt to enforce Roman Catholic doctrine within the Roman Catholic Church “mind control” deserves no other title.
Mr. DeFrancis–
“”The Knights of Columbus do a great deal of good in the name of Jesus Christ, but in this particular case, they were foot soldiers of a discredited army of oppression,” Knox told the B.A.R. , referring to its role in the Prop 8 campaign.”
According to Mr. Knox, the Catholic Church is “a discredited army of oppression.” Apparently our standards of what constitute bigotry differ, because that sure sounds like a pretty bigoted statement to me. Especially from one whom our President wants on his Advisory Council on Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.
“President Barack Obama has named to the federal government’s faith-based initiative a gay-rights activist who, last month, described Pope Benedict XVI and certain Catholic bishops as “discredited leaders” because of their opposition to same-sex marriage.
Harry Knox, who is a newly appointed member of Obama’s Advisory Council on Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships, is the director of the religion and faith program at the Human Rights Campaign, a homosexual activist group.
In addition to his remarks about the Pope, Knox also criticized the Catholic Knights of Columbus as being “foot soldiers of a discredited army of oppression” because of the Knights’ support of Proposition 8. The latter was a ballot initiative that amended California’s state constitution to define marriage as being between a man and a woman, and passed in November 2008.
Knox told CNSNews.com that he “absolutely” stands by his criticism of the pope.”
It may not be bigotry, but it is certainly offensive.
Knox’s statement about the Knights of Columbus is 100% correct.
Donald, is there some reason my comment has not been approved? I stayed on topic and I did not insult anyone.
Knox’s statement about the Knights of Columbus is 100% correct.
Michael, I find your endorsement to be even more absurd than the comment itself. Do you care to explain how the Knights of Columbus are the are the foot soldiers of a discredited army? As a complete statement it seems to say a lot (and I would disagree with it), but once you start to unpack it by elements it’s clearly a thought based on emotion and imagination rather than anything remotely resembling reality or truth.
I should add, to me, it’s clearly a statement of hostility and an attempt to demonize the “other”. I would say it is indeed bigoted.
That statement is correct independent of Knox’s views on Proposition 8. The K of C (in the u.s. at least – the Canadian version has a different flavour) are indeed the foot soldiers of right-wing americanist Catholicism.
Don – My thus far unapproved comment is no different than Mark’s. What are you afraid of?
I should add, to me, it’s clearly a statement of hostility and an attempt to demonize the “other”.
I don’t see any evidence of “demonizing,” but sure, it’s “hostile.” The question is whether or not the hostility is justified. Something tells me you can get awfully hostile when the issue of abortion comes up…
Not just foot soldiers of a discredited army, but an “army of oppression.” The army of opression seems not to be the K of C, as they are merely foot soldiers, but rather the Church itself. Indeed it does seem that one can take it as a bigoted statement rather than a “100% correct” statement.
Love the first link: “obscure Catholic group.” The KofC as albino political assassins. Oooh. Scary. Never mind they usually have signs up announcing their presence when you drive into town, right next to the Rotary and Moose.
All the better to dupe you with, my dear.
I agree with Mr. Knox 100% percent about the KofC, too–at least here: “The Knights do a great deal of good in the name of Jesus Christ.”
And anybody who can’t see the anti-Catholicism in the tired “mind control” trope is squeezing his eyes shut.
I’m not going to say the man is a completely closed-minded bigot–his praise of the Knights argues against that–but he certainly is willing to traffic in the same terminology.
Catholic Anarchist, on weekdays I normally work between 10 to 12 hours at my “real” job. I try to check in now and then to comment and approve or delete comments, but how frequently I do this depends upon my day to day schedule.
That statement is correct independent of Knox’s views on Proposition 8. The K of C (in the u.s. at least – the Canadian version has a different flavour) are indeed the foot soldiers of right-wing americanist Catholicism.
Like Phillip, it seems to me that he is considering the KofC as foot soldiers of the Catholic Church, not right-wing Americanist Catholicism. The arguments against this thing called homosexual marriage are grounded in Church teaching. To the degree that American Catholics accept or reject that, left-wing or right is of no consequence.
If you have a problem with the KofC running an insurance company, collecting money for special needs children, building memorials for aborted children, voicing and lobbying politically for moral societal policies, it seems your real problem is with the Church, for it is She who informs us that these are all good things to do.
Michael I,
what specific activity of K of C do you find objectionable? Your accusation seems awful vague.
There could be no clearer signal from Michael I. that leftist political beliefs take priority over anything that the Church teaches.
S.B.:
Well, let the man answer first before pulling the trigger. I doubt you or I (as DGK at my parish’s council) will be particularly pleased with the response, but I think we should know where he’s coming from.
Catholic Anarchist, I deleted your last comment as it was off-topic. For future reference I will delete any comment from you in the future that has the phrase “What are you afraid of?” directed towards me. I have you in moderation because of your well-established habit of personal insult and off-topic wanderings that I will not allow in my threads, and schoolyard taunts will not alter my opinion. In response to your query I have approved all of your comments except the last one that you have made in reference to this thread. If an earlier comment on this thread was deleted, it wasn’t by me.
Catholic Anarchist, I approved a comment that I think may have been the earlier one you referred to. I assume it must have gotten caught in the spam filter as I didn’t notice it earlier.
I stand by my contention that the man is a bigot for the reasons that I and others in this thread have pointed out.
As for not taking the words that I write seriously, well obviously you do take them seriously since you make such strenuous efforts to refute them.
Let the man answer first? He already made his position clear: it’s “100% correct” to accuse the Knights of being “foot soldiers of a discredited army of oppression” merely because they opposed gay marriage in California. It couldn’t be clearer that Michael thinks the Church’s position is oppressive.
Actually, I suspect his objection may be directed to the patriotic aspects of the Knights. His comment at 11:28am distinguishes the Prop 8 activity.
There could be no clearer signal from Michael I. that leftist political beliefs take priority over anything that the Church teaches.
I’m not sure how. My dislike of the K of C is precisely because of what the Church teaches.
or future reference I will delete any comment from you in the future that has the phrase “What are you afraid of?” directed towards me.
Why? Are you a man who fears nothing?
Actually, I suspect his objection may be directed to the patriotic aspects of the Knights. His comment at 11:28am distinguishes the Prop 8 activity.
Right. S.B. obviously missed that part of my comments.
I oppose the patriotic activity of the Knights, their divinization of the american nation-state, and their tendency to buy into general american cultural conservatism and assuming that this is equivalent with the Catholic faith. The Knights demonstrate and encourage americanist Catholicism. As I said above, the Knights are indeed the foot soldiers of right-wing americanist Catholicism. I am encouraged that the Knights, at least in my part of the u.s., are struggling to survive as an institution. When I was a campus minister I received countless messages from them virtually begging me to help them recruit among college students. Perhaps this means that, although some young Catholics are drawn toward a “nostalgia” for a “traditional” Catholicism that they never experienced, they are decidedly not attracted to the americanist version of Catholicism (which is hardly “traditional”) peddled by the likes of the Knights, and by this blog for that matter. Some young Catholics may enjoy the aesthetics of “traditional” liturgical forms, for example, but they have a consciousness of “World Catholicism,” unlike the narrow, bigoted, patriotic (i.e. sectarian) Catholicism of the Knights.
Ah, I had missed that. Still, saying they’re an “army of oppression” is a bit rich.
Dale,
Actually he said “right-wing americanist Catholicism.” That’s a little different than patriotism.
I approved your “I really despise the Knights of Columbus” comment Catholic Anarchist, an organization I am happy to say which is thriving in my parish.
I deleted your other comment as off-topic and replete with personal insults, a twofer for you.
In regard to the Knights of Columbus Catholic Anarchist, the Holy Father disagrees with you apparently:
http://www.kofc-ca.org/newsletters/supreme/20081023_KnightLine.pdf
Color me shocked!
I concur with S.B., Michael I. clearly lets his politics overtake his Catholicism. No doubt about it. Slandering the KofC of all organizations is over the top.
Could someone explain the importance of yet another pro-abortion homosexual activist to the Obama administration?
Surely it is preferable that M.r Obama nail his colors to the mast, rather than playing footsie with such as Lawyer Kmiec and the other Catholics for Obama who have spent much energy attempting to explain that Mr. Obama “isn’t that bad”.
I oppose the patriotic activity of the Knights, their divinization of the american nation-state,
This is utter calumny. We do not “divinize” the American nation-state. Are we patriotic? Guilty as charged.
and their tendency to buy into general american cultural conservatism and assuming that this is equivalent with the Catholic faith.
Oh you mean things like supporting a culture of life fund in which we fight against those forces engaged in a ceaseless assault on the unborn? Creating programs designed to help and encourage fathers? Helping to beat back gay marriage in California? Yes, clearly only right-wing American Catholics are concerned with these issues.
The Knights demonstrate and encourage americanist Catholicism.
Yawn. Morning’s Minion says the same thing more creatively.
As I said above, the Knights are indeed the foot soldiers of right-wing americanist Catholicism.
Yes, you’ve said that twice in four sentences. Your professors must be amazed at your incredible ability to pad your arguments through repetition.
I am encouraged that the Knights, at least in my part of the u.s., are struggling to survive as an institution.
That’s funny. My experience is just the opposite. College councils are absolutely thriving. Also, I must say that I find it disturbing that you would revel in the (albeit non-existent) troubles of an organization comprised of Catholic men. In a culture that celebrates pornography, the assault of our traditional family values, and countless other evils, it’s curious that an organization that fights these trends would draw your ire. Unless of course you’re not much interested in fighting these cultural trends.
Nah, that couldn’t possibly be the case.
blah blah americanist blah blah blah right-wing blah blah blah amaricanist
If your desire to side with an anti-Catholic bigot against an organization that will accomplish more than you ever will to advance a culture of life in this country weren’t so disgusting, it would almost be funny.
I don’t think Michael I. will care what the pope thinks here.
It’s interesting that the Knights are all about “defending the Pope” — except of course when his views come into conflict with the foreign policy of the united states of america. The K of C unapologetically supported the war in Iraq and completely ignored the Popes’ condemnation of that war. (I have copies of their magazine in which they do this.) Some respect they have for the Pope, eh?
I don’t think Michael I. will care what the pope thinks here.
I always care what the Pope thinks. But I disagree with him in this case. That should not be a problem for you, considering many of you disagree with the Pope when it comes to the defense of human life, such as in the case of war. In that case, you’re perfectly content disagreeing with him. Interesting that many of you are more interested in defending an all-male club of beer-guzzling, flag waving patriots than you are in defending the victims of the u.s.’s wars, supported by that same little club.
The K of C unapologetically supported the war in Iraq and completely ignored the Popes’ condemnation of that war. (I have copies of their magazine in which they do this.) Some respect they have for the Pope, eh?
I always care what the Pope thinks. But I disagree with him in this case.
Do as I scream about, not as I do.
Paul – 1) Surely you don’t believe that Catholics must agree with the Pope on everything that comes out of his mouth? 2) What kind of bizarre ecclesiology do you have that allows you to ignore the Popes’ teaching on the deliberate destruction of human life, and yet insists that I agree with him on his opinion on the merits of a Catholic organization that could very well die out in the next 10-20 years? Do I have to agree with him on his favorite beers as well?
The K of C unapologetically supported the war in Iraq and completely ignored the Popes’ condemnation of that war.
And your evidence of that is?
S.B. – As I stated in the same comment that you snipped, I have the issue of their magazine (The Light of the Majestic Knightly Ones or whatever it’s called) that announces their support of then-President Bush and his war.
The Pope’s favorite piece of music, I hear, is Mozart’s Clarinet Quintet.
We are thus all obliged to assent, as a matter of faith and morals, to its superiority over all other musical works.
Burke is trying to push through a directive that all Americans are to buy a special Vatican edition of the work.
And if certain bishops then decide to allow communion to those who intentionally fail to make such a purchase,or vote for Catholic political candidates who do not, he wants them immediately stripped of their posts.
Any place where we could see this magazine?
I don’t recognize the K of C in those gloating, caricature-studded screeds, Mr. Iafrate. Much less the self-satisfied dismissal of the undeniable good work done by flawed but good-hearted Catholic men trying to support their parishes and communities.
Our council has an 83 year old member who can’t drive but attends every meeting and pitches in on fundraising for mentally impaired kids every year, standing out in the cold soliciting donations for the Boy Scout troop for special needs kids, the elementary school for MI/EI students and the charity providing for brain-injured infants and toddlers.
If you want to sit at your keyboard and mock what he and others like him do every year because the Columbia and the leadership made a stupid statement on the war in Iraq, that’s fine. But understand the entirety of what you are trashing and hope dies in the 10-20 years.
And then–this is essential–tell us what you are going to do to help pick up the slack if the K of C does wither away.
Any place where we could see this magazine?
Yes. It’s in my apartment in my file of periodicals. I don’t plan on having the Catholic American cohort over anytime soon, though, so maybe you could use Google.
I don’t recognize the K of C in those gloating, caricature-studded screeds, Mr. Iafrate. Much less the self-satisfied dismissal of the undeniable good work done by flawed but good-hearted Catholic men trying to support their parishes and communities.
I don’t mock the good things that they do. But I think we might disagree on which things they do are “good” and which ones are “bad.” Whatever good they do is also being done by ordinary Catholics who don’t feel the need to be a part of a gender exclusive, flag waving, fish frying, Pledge-of-Allegiance-saving, let’s-play-dress-up, band of merry men. I don’t see them doing anything particularly special that the Church can’t do without such absurdities, and most especially without such uncritical, irrational support for american war-making.
Watch out Michael. You might get the 4th degrees after you…
What kind of bizarre ecclesiology do you have that allows you to ignore the Popes’ teaching on the deliberate destruction of human life,
First of all, I doubt tremendously that the KoC had an official position regarding the war. Certain writers in Columbia may have expressed pro-Iraq war opinions, but I tend to doubt that there was an organizational mandate, other than general support for the troops. Also, we’ve been down this road many times, but you are beign incredibly deceptive when it comes to Church “teaching” and the Iraq War, but there’s really no point in going down that road once again. I do find your selectivity when it comes to heeding the words of the Bishops and the Pope sad, but amusing in a sort of way.
Yes. It’s in my apartment in my file of periodicals. I don’t plan on having the Catholic American cohort over anytime soon, though, so maybe you could use Google.
Generally speaking it is the duty of the person making the argument to provide the proof. This must be yet another quality that endears you to your committee.
Dale has already spoken about how your distortions of what the Knights do and who they are to be wide of the mark. They are more revealing about what kind of Catholic you are than what the Knights are as a group. Again, you take the side of anti-Catholic bigot. More’s the pity for you.
I don’t mock the good things that they do. But I think we might disagree on which things they do are “good” and which ones are “bad.” Whatever good they do is also being done by ordinary Catholics who don’t feel the need to be a part of a gender exclusive, flag waving, fish frying, Pledge-of-Allegiance-saving, let’s-play-dress-up, band of merry men. I don’t see them doing anything particularly special that the Church can’t do without such absurdities, and most especially without such uncritical, irrational support for american war-making.
As I recall one of the good things that the Knights do is that they are by the largest single donor in the world to the pope’s personal charity fund, which the pontiff uses to dispense help throughout the world. So regardless of one’s theory that others might do whatever good they do, it is apparently the case at this point in time that they don’t.
I’m curious whether Michael is actually aware of the reason for being of the knights, which actually has little to do with flag waving, dress up, fish fries or even (though one should not overlook the importance of malt and hops in life) beer. The Venerable Father Michael J. McGivney founded the knights as a fraternal organization for Catholic men in order to bring men (and specifically heads of households) together in solidarity to care for each others’ dependents when members died or became disabled. In the immigrant slums of the 1880s this was an incredibly important task, as the loss of husband/father could plunge a whole extended family into total poverty.
Fraternal care for members and other people in the parish who are in need remains one of the primary purposes of the Knights, with a call going out in every meeting as to whether anyone knows of any brother knight who is in need. So although the original pooling of resources to care for widows and orphans of members has morphed over the years into a set of life insurance tools, the Knights also continue to do huge amounts of work in their local communities and around the world.
In the 2007 fraternal year the Order gave US$ 144,911,781 directly to charity (1.1 Billion in charitable contributions in the last 10 years) and performed over 68,695,768 man hours of voluntary service.
It’s in my apartment in my file of periodicals. I don’t plan on having the Catholic American cohort over anytime soon, though, so maybe you could use Google.
There’s no evidence for your assertion, then. Outside of your own word, that is, which isn’t worth very much (you habitually exaggerate the positions supposedly taken by people that you despite).
Mark,
Mark DeFrancisis Says:
Thursday, April 9, 2009 A.D. at 10:14 am
The Pope’s favorite piece of music, I hear, is Mozart’s Clarinet Quintet.
We are thus all obliged to assent, as a matter of faith and morals, to its superiority over all other musical works.
Burke is trying to push through a directive that all Americans are to buy a special Vatican edition of the work.
And if certain bishops then decide to allow communion to those who intentionally fail to make such a purchase,or vote for Catholic political candidates who do not, he wants them immediately stripped of their posts.
It would seem you’re inferring that the cause of musical perfection is at the same level as the cause of eliminating the wholesale slaughter of unborn children. If I miss your meaning here please clarify.
There’s no evidence for your assertion, then. Outside of your own word, that is, which isn’t worth very much (you habitually exaggerate the positions supposedly taken by people that you despite).
I’m not sweating it! A quick Google search will generate documentation for anyone who is not stuck in a state of denial.
I did a quick search–couldn’t find anything other than the support by the KCs of the troops, fundraising for Catholics in Iraq, financial support for families of soldiers killed in action, etc., including a special exhibit they put together in 2003 called “Pope John Paul II: A Passion for Peace” at their museum, highlighting John Paul II’s peace messages and including objects such as “a commemorative peace lamp the pope gave to Cardinal Vinko Puljic of Sarajevo in 1997, during the height of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; a rosary made by Polish political prisoners out of iron nails; and a Nativity set given to the pope by Yassir Arafat.” Sounds pretty war-mongery.
Maybe I’ll try again later. Perhaps he who whistles far and wee with his capitalization skills when it comes to his native country can help?
I suspect that the disconnect is that the evidence available via google doesn’t look like chearleading the war to anyone here except Michael. Many would consider writing about the work of Catholic chaplains, helping the families of soldiers who are on deployment or have been killed, etc. as simply being the sort of things that Catholics ought to do.
No, it won’t. A google search for “Knights of Columbus” and “Iraq” turns up a bunch of stories about how they’re helping families of soldiers killed in action, or sending Christmas care packages . . . . that kind of thing. To be sure, someone of your sympathies would sneer at helping families of soldiers too, but even so it’s not the same as “napologetically supported the war in Iraq and completely ignored the Popes’ condemnation of that war.”
So you have yet to prove that point. (If it’s as easy to prove as you say, what’s taking you so long?)
As far as I know the Knights have taken no stand on the Iraq war. My guess is that if the Knights had been polled individually they might have been more supportive of the war than the general American population but not much more. Most Knights I know, I’m one although to my discredit not very active other than paying my membership dues, tend to be socially conservative, but after that their political views are all over the lot. The Knights have always been strong against abortion and, recently, against gay marriage, but other than that their political stances have been very few.
Our council has an 83 year old member who can’t drive but attends every meeting and pitches in on fundraising for mentally impaired kids every year, standing out in the cold soliciting donations for the Boy Scout troop for special needs kids
Now you’ve done it, Dale.
If there’s anything that provokes the ire of the Catholic Anarchist more than the all-male club of beer-guzzling, flag waving patriots known as the KoC, it’s the all-male club of soda-guzzling, flag waving, America-divinizing patriots known as the Boy Scouts.