Well, this is interesting. Professor Douglas Kries at Gonzaga University in Spokane gives his assessment of Bishop Blase Cupich, the Spokane Bishop tapped to head the Chicago Archdiocese:
Go here to read the rest at The Catholic Thing. I suspect that the key to understanding Blase Cupich is his obvious belief that it is best if Catholicism comes to terms with the powers that be in secular society and not rock the boat. The term for this sort of accomodation by Christians and Jews in Islamic cultures is Dhimmi status. That is precisely the path, whether consciously or unconsciously, the Blase Cupich’ of the Church would lead us down. A world in which Catholics, if they are well-behaved, can still worship on Sunday, so long as they give up any hope of influencing their societies. Among the pro-abort, largely Catholic, Democrat political establishment in Chicago, he will be as welcome as a fat bribe to an alderman.
Update: Three of the comments under the post of Professor Kries are very interesting:
written by Leo James, September 24, 2014
[…] Cupich Publicly Chastised a Kid for Genuflecting Before Receiving the Blessed Sacrament by Donald R. McClarey JD of […]
Donald R McClarey wrote, “I suspect that the key to understanding Blase Cupich is his obvious belief that it is best if Catholicism comes to terms with the powers that be in secular society and not rock the boat.”
I have always found it ironic that the Catholic Church is so often accused, by Protestants and Secularists alike, of wishing to establish a theocracy, when the vice of her hierarchy in almost all ages has been Erastianism and the desire to be part of a (formal or informal) national establishment.
Gallicanism, Febronism, Josephism are just so many examples of a perennial tendency.
I’ve already given the comment of the week out MPS, but this comment is so on target I am going to do it again. Twice in one week Sam, take ‘er away!:
I addressed similar concerns on my blog post, titled Two recent ecclesiastical developments giving me pause and cause for prayer.
The time has come for lay Catholics to continue and even strengthen the fight for a Culture of Life in the public arena in the face of public hostility from the media and the general culture of death, and diminished support, real or perceived, by some of our pastors.
Faith and reason do not contradict. Science and religion do not contradict. Church and state do not contradict for all are predicated on the Truth and the Way of the Truth.
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Perhaps installment as Bishop of Chicago is a form of exorcism.
MPS
The habits of Christendom die hard huh?
When professors become popes, they can decide on bishops.
Looking at this in the spirit of contrapasso, is Chicago a promotion or a punishment?
“When professors become popes, they can decide on bishops.”
When popes become dictators they can expect their appointments not to be scrutinized by clergy and laity alike.
Faithful Catholics must keep in mind, that while clergy in your diocese are required to obey their bishop, you are not. When you see a transgression, you are to call him out on it, and continue on the path that you know is correct. We have such a bishop in Pennsylvania, and we still pray each Friday in front of Planned Parenthood despite his public statements that we are somehow bullies for praying-a statement he refuses to withdraw. Carry on Christian soldiers. This is not the first time we have seen clergy of this caliber, and it will not be the last. We are the Church Militant. God bless. ” Who is to save our poor Church? Do not look to your priest. Do not look to your bishop. It is up to the laity to make priests priests, and bishops bishops.” -Venerable Fulton Sheen.
I was a Roman Catholic (college) seminarian from 1972-1975. My very first theology course (taught at the local Jesuit university) was an introductory course. The texts were The Way of All the Earth, Religions of the World, and Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. The point of reading these books, according to the professor, himself a diocesan priest, was to “cross over” into other religious perspectives to enhance our appreciation of our own faith. For a parochial, naive young student, as I was then, this was a daunting challenge and at times an unsettling one. We were told by the upperclassmen that we (the freshmen) were to be “demythologized” and assimilated into the “new theology,” whatever that was. While I don’t disagree with the notion of thinking outside of one’s own box and stepping outside of one’s comfort zone in the pursuit of knowledge, there is a difference between eating at a buffet or merely studying the menu. I understand that the Church wants committed believers and not just catechism-reciting drones. But there has to be a common understanding of what we believe. One cannot treat the world of ideas as all equally valid without the filter of a belief system grounded in one’s own faith. And the idea of getting lost in order to find one’s way home seems superfluous. I know because I spent most of my adult life doing exactly that, thanks to Siddartha. The idea of a Catholic University teaching a catholic worldview may sound like a novel one, but I think it’s worth a try.
This is precisely the type of hierarch who would have been appointed during the unhappy Papacy of Paul VI, with recommendations from the Apostolic Delegate Archbishop Jean Jadot. We all know how that turned out!
It really seems to make very little difference who appoints the bishops, whether they are in the giftof the Holy See, elected by the Cathedral Chapter, as in a number of Austrian, German and Swiss sees, or in consultation with the government. They seem, for the most part, to develop a sort of corporate spirit or ethos.
Bl John Henry Newman, with his usual sardonic humour, invited his readers to imagine a modern bishop with the historical pretentionsof St Martin or St Ambrose, their claims, their prerogatives and their corresponding acts, or one who recalled to our minds the image of St Basil.
They seem, for the most part, to develop a sort of corporate spirit or ethos.
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Not true. There are manifest differences from diocese to diocese and from one era to another. Boston and Dallas suffered catastrophic misgovernment during the period running from 1969 to 2002 (and for several years thereafter in Dallas). That did not happen elsewhere.
[…] Well, this is interesting. Professor Douglas Kries at Gonzaga University in Spokane gives his assessment of Bishop Blase Cupich, the Spokane Bishop tapped to head the Chicago Archdiocese: Bishop White Seminary at Gonzaga, which was nothing short of an extraordinary success story until Cupich became bishop, fell quickly into desuetude after his arrival. Moreover, when Gonzaga University refused to continue club status for Gonzaga’s campus Knights of Columbus council, Cupich, it is widely whispered, told the remaining seminarians not to discuss the matter with the press. It has also been widely reported that Cupich did not want his diocesan priests involved with certain pro-life groups that he considered too strident. Cupich may not even know it, but at the time, students involved with Gonzaga’s Right to Life Club felt abandoned, even though they were not his direct target. I once wrote to him expressing in particular my concerns about the direction of Gonzaga’s core curriculum. His reply was polite, but he made it quite clear that he had no interest in involving himself in such matters. Gonzaga adopted, and is now planning to implement, a core curriculum that diminishes the number of courses that students take in “Catholic or Christian religion” from three to one. The formerly required course on the Bible is being eliminated and the course in applied Christianity, which often in practice meant Christian morality, is being changed to world religions. Gonzaga students, many of whom belong to Cupich’s diocese, will soon be devoting only a single semester course in four years of college (3 out of 128 credits, or 2.34 percent) to the study of “the Catholic or Christian religion.” The local Spokane newspaper describes Cupich as “a moderate who has called for civility in the culture wars,” since he has said that Pope Francis doesn’t want “ideologues.” From what I can tell, the description is inaccurate. Real moderates engage all sides, trying to find common ground, if it is available, that will permit them to advance their principles. By not inserting his office into conflict situations, Cupich has often, whether intentionally or not, quietly ceded much ground to one side, and without advancing his principles. To be fair, Cupich was willing to debate publicly a local city councilman about legalization of same-sex marriage. Still, on the whole, the record is hardly a bold one. And one wonders: if he comes across as too timid to be effective in the small, rather polite, and humble diocese of Spokane, what are his chances to be effective in a large, muscular, broad-shouldered place like Chicago? My advice to Catholics in Chicago? Your new archbishop is a very nice man; he is also very intelligent and talented. I respect him far too much to flatter him, as many of my fellow Spokanites are wont to do. And I refuse to believe that he really thinks that those of you trying to defend and advance the Church in the public forum are just “ideologues.” But he tends to be – to use a polite phrase – “conflict averse.” Go here to read the rest at The Catholic Thing. I suspect that the key to understanding Blase Cupich is his obvious belief that it is best if Catholicism comes to terms with the powers that be in secular society and not rock the boat. The term for this sort of accomodation by Christians and Jews in Islamic cultures is Dhimmi status. That is precisely the path, whether consciously or unconsciously, the Blase Cupich’ of the Church would lead us down. A world in which Catholics, if they are well-behaved, can still worship on Sunday, so long as they give up any hope of influencing their societies. Among the pro-abort, largely Catholic, Democrat political establishment in Chicago, he will be as welcome as a fat bribe to an alderman. Update: Three of the comments under the post of Professor Kries are very interesting: written by Leo James, September 24, 2014 In his first Mass as our new Pastor in Omaha, Father Cupich publicly chastised our teenage daughter for genuflecting,as was her practice, along with many others in our parish, before receiving the Blessed Sacrament. He said loudly so that all in the communion line could hear: “don’t do that in my church again”. We pray that he has reflected on John 12:3 since that time and for those he is called to serve in Chicago. ************************* written by Fr. Kloster, September 24, 2014 I know Archbishop Cupich. I first met him in 1991. He is a progressive Catholic. I was pushed over the edge long ago and don’t feel the need to play any nuanced games with anyone no matter what it costs me personally. I don’t like using the secular political titles, because they don’t apply where the Church is concerned. You are either Catholic or somewhat less than Catholic (all the way from missing one doctrine or discipline to being aggressively anti-Catholic). Archbishop Cupich could never be described as a traditional Catholic. I’m trying to be as charitable as possible. I’ve had several face to face conversations with the man, so I know his tendencies well. ************************ written by MTF, September 24, 2014 It is bittersweet to see Bishop Cupich appointed to Chicago. Bitter because he sees it as a promotion, when his priests and laity have suffered so much under his leadership. Sweet, because we can all breathe a little easier now, knowing that Our good Lord has come to rescue us from this wolf in sheep’s clothing. Without going into to too much detail, I will say that our holy priests are most likely VERY relieved. (Many of them have admitted in confidence, to many of us lay Catholics that B. Cupich terrifies them. Bishop Cupich has ruled over them with an iron fist, and this is not a secret, my friends (And his mandate to avoid praying in front of PP is only one of many of those examples.) “strike the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter.” We have been in the desert over here in Spokane since he was installed September 3rd, 2010. God has finally delivered us from his hands, though. I’ll be praying for you Chicago- you are gonna need it!! Oh, and one piece of advice for any of you who ever happen to go to him for confession: ask him to turn off his phone BEFORE the sacrament begins. He is on his phone CONSTANTLY,(which is not news to Spokanites), but I was STUNNED to hear text beeps occurring while he was listening to my confession. To this day, I regret not asking him why he would leave his phone on during this holy sacrament. – See more at: https://the-american-catholic.com/2014/09/24/professor-douglas-kries-on-cupich/#sthash.WQl1iiwe.dpuf […]
Ezekiel 34:1-10
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34 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord God: Ho, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep? 3 You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fatlings; but you do not feed the sheep. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the crippled you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. 5 So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the wild beasts. 6 My sheep were scattered, they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them.
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7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As I live, says the Lord God, because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd; and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep; 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and put a stop to their feeding the sheep; no longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.
How sad that at a time when an archbishop should resoundingly stand up for morality someone like Blase Cupich should be appointed. I do not believe that someone with his attitude, is someone who goes along, to get along. Priests who do not defend the unborn do not defend because they believe in abortion. They do not defend marriage between man and woman, because in their minds same sex marriage is not a big deal. Or a more accurate way to put it is that marriage is not a big deal. Priests whose big issues are injustise (according to them) or the enviorment or those nasty conservatives, or anyone who expresses sexual self control,are really no different than any left leaning social activist. You find as express ed in this article about Cupich, they are heavy handed and have no problem embarassing or coming down heavy on people who dare not to share their viewpoint. Humilating a young girl who knells to receive communion, no problem. He probably dosent like those devout elderly ladies, who say the rosary. Congradulations to our Pope. Another great choice. We must carry on, now more that ever! Be more active and read that Baltimore Catchechism.Start a reading group.
God Help Us! We are back, like a bad dream, in the 70’s, only on steroids. It did not work then, it will not work now. At some point you must speak the Truth! You can not convert people if they do not know what they are converting to. Our Lady of Fatima and Akita predicted these times. Read the Book of Daniel, which Jesus said must be fulfilled. The Mass as Christ intended, a sacrifice for our sins, will disappear, not from without, but from within! It will be replaced with an abomination. Sister Lucia, of Fatima, asked, “Why did Our Lady say, ‘ The Rosary, you will always have.”? Why did she not say, “The Mass you will always have?” We are getting close.
I do not think it prudent to repeat hearsay and gossip about a person selected to lead the Chicago archdiocese.
for example, the letter about bishop cupich telling a young girl to never kneel for communion again. first, who knows whether the letter writer is even recounting a real event. second, if it were a real event, how do we know the letter writer is getting his or her facts right? third, even if father cupich said such a thing, how do we know it refers to the child deciding to kneel and not to some other gesture of the child?
seriously, repeating such unverifiable slander is not conducive to growing spiritually.
even the eye witness testimony of prof. kries must be subjected to the fact that he could have misunderstood or misinterpreted what occurred and he most certainly is not privy to all of the considerations bishop cupich was privy to in making his decisions. it is obvious, also, that prof. kries was casting his interactions with bishop cupich in a very negative manner.
I do not think it is the purpose of this blog to introduce gossip and possible slander in to the dialogue of the faithful.
This Pope continues to inspire me every day.
Slander! Hearsay! Gossip! Lies! Misinterpretations! I think you meant libel.
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Richard Fernandez: “It is impossible to understand the politics of the Left without grasping that it is all about deniable intimidation.”
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Thanks for the afternoon’s dose, eddie too.
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People will judge Cuppie by his actions, not his talk or writings.
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And, we evil, crazy people don’t get it. Cuppie is a prince of the Church. He can makes changes and push his agenda which is oh-so-inclusive. He’s inclusive except for evil, crazy people that disagree.
“I do not think it is the purpose of this blog to introduce gossip and possible slander in to the dialogue of the faithful.”
Please. This is not a court of law where facts must meet the rules of evidence. We report the statements made by other individuals and people can accept or reject the accounts as they please. I would say that far more harm has occurred in the history of the Church from people holding their tongues and pens in regard to powerful clerics out of fear of giving scandal than people giving vent to statements of grievances. We live in an age of instant communication and there is no putting that genie back in the bottle, and I am not going to report only statements which would pass muster under the arcane rules of evidence that I live by when I appear in court.
I do not think it prudent to repeat hearsay and gossip about a person selected to lead the Chicago archdiocese.
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I’ve noticed over the years that some people favor pluperfect poses when they do not want people they favor criticized or regarded as accountable. (My favorite example was given some years ago by a professor at Wheaton College, who went into a state of contrived high dudgeon when it was pointed out that a friend of his on the faculty who had resigned under a cloud had given an account of his conduct that did not pass a smell test. I stopped taking Prof. High Dudgeon seriously then and there).
“Don’t rock the boat” is how our bishops brought us Sen. Ted Kennedy, abortion on demand, the Welfare State, Obamacara, and USCCB funding for anti-Catholic groups. Sins of omission and commission.
Once upon a time there was a Jesuit school whose champion basketball team was busted for cheating. The college head shut the program down. This is a useful lesson for our bishops and their USCCB.
P.S. Has Pope Francis suppressed the Jesuits yet?
*perks up* Maybe this will mean that my folks’ parish will get someone that doesn’t think the Sunday before Christmas is the time to have his dad give the homily to raise funds for illegal aliens.
It was bad enough being the test drive parish, but this guy managed to drive my mom out of attending because there’s so little Catholicism involved, and even the guys whose English was so bad that I couldn’t understand it didn’t manage that.
Alright, this is kinda ironic– eddie, you may be guilty of rash judgement in your assumption of the moral failings of others without sufficient foundation– that the information above causes unjust harm to the reputation of the Bishop.
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“It was widely whispered” is a traditional way of sharing important information that, if you identified the sources specifically, you’d cause them trouble. The specific claims can be checked.
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To declare that it is gossip is to poison the well– you’ve either got to show it’s false, it’s needless, or that it’s unjust.
Perhaps, the episode of the girl occurred on a Sunday. In that case, maybe Fr Cupich (as he then was) is zealous for Holy Tradition and wishes to restore primitive practice.
According to Tertullian, “On the Lord’s Day (i.e. Sunday) we consider it improper to fast or to kneel; and we also enjoy this freedom from Pascha until Pentecost” (On the Crown, ch. 3). The Apostolic Constitutions are to the same effect (Book II, Ch. 59)
St Basil, too, says, “”We stand up when praying on the first of the week…” (Canon XCI of St. Basil the Great)
Then, we have the 20th Canon of the First Council of Nicea, “Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.”
Likewise, we have the 90th canon of the Council in Trullo, held in conjunction with the Sixth Ecumenical Council, “”We have received it canonical from our God-bearing Fathers not to bend the knee on Sundays when honouring the resurrection of Christ…”
It may be so, in which case, Traditionalists should applaud him.
The problem, as I understand it, is that those prescriptions on kneeling were in effect at a time when faith in the real presence and reverence at Mass were not issues. Kneeling and genuflecting was brought in at the Council of Trent precisely because the Real Presence was under attack by the Reformation. Query: Are Catholics today more, or less aware of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
I was raised prior to Vatican II. The normal recipient of Holy Communion left his pew. walked to the communion rail and knelt. He did not genuflect. What? You say there is NO communion rail? Well, then find a real Catholic church that has one.
In that case, maybe Fr Cupich (as he then was) is zealous for Holy Tradition and wishes to restore primitive practice.
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Riiight.
Complaints about a Bishop should go to the Pope. Has anyone thought to do this. Please don’t say that Francis will not do anything. There are a lot of complaints here about this Bishop. We in the archdiocese did complain and did a lot more as well regarding Archbishop Favalora. We even wrote a lengthy report and sent it to Rome. If you have already done it then do it again. There probably is a lot more to this story on him than has been told. God bless him.
“In that case, maybe Fr Cupich (as he then was) is zealous for Holy Tradition and wishes to restore primitive practice.”
I am morally certain that the principle of charitable interpretation doesn’t require me to enter the realm of hallucinatory fantasy.
Please don’t say that Francis will not do anything.
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He’ll do something. He’ll cold call a divorcee in Cicero and tell her she and her common law should feel welcome to take communion and he’ll remind Bp. Cupich to see to it that that oratory where the Latin Mass is offered is closed and the priest who offers it shut up in some Dominican priory while chancery press agents drop hints he’s a pederast who stole from the collection plate.
Has anyone thought to do this.
Of those few who have been taught that one is supposed to? Probably, yes– and a lot more have probably sent in letters praising the same things. It was a different Bishop at the time, but when I was a teen the only time I heard of official pressure coming down was when a priest mentioned that divorce is against the Church’s teachings. (Never heard anything about abortion at all.)
On what do you base your idea that something will be done?
I asked all Catholics who do not attend the EF of the mass, please do so. You will see and hear major differences between the OF and the EF. Not only in the rubrics of the mass, but also in the sermons. Our pastor tackles issues, such as homosexuality, same-sex marriage, abortion, issues you will rarely hear from the pulpits of the Novus Ordo. I am a pre-Vatican person, and I will never, ever attend a Novus Ordo mass.
Vatican II has caused disastrous results, and the Vatican continues on a course of destruction. I will have no part of it.
Sounds like he’ll fit right in to Chicag-Obamaland.
Our current parish– when I can actually hear what the Father is saying, kids and all mean we’re in the crying room a lot– does just fine on actually teaching, and they’ve done great things on out-reach to fallen away Catholics.
It’s not Vatican II that’s the problem, it’s all the junk that people brought in as the “spirit” of Vatican II; a lot of the falsehoods that were spread can be countered, now.
On websites like this, and Catholic answers, and by EWTN.
Mr. DeCarlo,
The Second Vatican Council defined no Catholic doctrine or dogma. It was a series of documents that was supposed to open the windows. The modernists who lurked under the surface, including Bugnini – the architect of the Novus Ordo, used the opportunity of a weak willed Pope to do whatever they wanted. Much garbage has been foistered on the faithful for decades in the name of the Second Vatican Council. The biggest error was to suppress the Tridentine Mass.
We have had in the Church in the West a hierarchy that pays lip service to V2 and treats it as if it was the creation of a new Church. Things will not change until the laity are angry enough that the bishops have no choice but to listen.
Arrogance reigns supreme. Bishop Cupich comes off as arrogant. Cardinal Mahony was supremely arrogant.
Argentina has already given the world Evita Peron; she pretended to love the poor so persuasively that Argentina loved her unreservedly for fifty years. Now Argentina gives the world Evita in a white mitre. Pope Francis is too old like Evita was too young to really change anything but he talks the talk of humility and service charmingly. His appointments of bishops show that he has no fight or no grasp of the pastoral burdens of the Church earlier popes had barely saved from his sort of vacuous theologically indifferent populism.
William e Bauer wrote, “What? You say there is NO communion rail? Well, then find a real Catholic church that has one.”
Many French churches have never had a communion rail; they have a rood screen, dividing the chancel from the nave. Here is a particularly fine example from Kerfons in Brittany, dating from the 13th century.
http://tinyurl.com/ouv52ka
In larger churches, it often supports the organ and choir loft.
Communicants, who were able to do so, tended to kneel in the doorway to take the sacrament; the elderly or infirm stood.
Open sanctuaries and communion rails were all but unknown before the 17th century and represented a departure from the traditions of both East and West.
c matt, Art Deco and Dale Price
No doubt, you are right. But it does show how selective soi-disant Traditionalists are in the traditions they favour and those they do not. They blithely dismiss the tradition that forbids kneeling on Sundays, attested by the Fathers of East and West since the 2nd century, but desiderate communion rails that are an innovation of the 17th. One suspects their criterion is personal taste and nothing else.
“kids and all mean we’re in the crying room a lot”
My family and I became residents of our parish’ crying room for quite a long time! Memories!
MPS,
Your recent tone has been somewhat critical of us who favor Tradition. Not all of us have the opportunity to study the history of the Mass in each country from two or three centuries back. We have our recent history to draw on – a history of trashing the statues, ripping out the communion rails which WERE a part of Catholic life in the United States, installing ugly stained glass with no religious aspect, the trashing of main altars and replacing them with chairs, ditching the choir loft with a bunch of people singing Haugen-Haas-Schutte-St. Louis Jesuits to guitars and tamborines in an area that had been a side altar – and being expected to sing an
-entrance hymn
-the Gloria
-the responsorial psalm
-the Alleluia before and after the Gospel
-an offertory hymn
-the Mystery of Faith
-the Our Father
-the Agnus Dei
-the Communion hymn (in some places, standing and singing the whole time when Communion is best spent in prayer),
-and the exit hymn, which is inferior to the Last Gospel.
I like things the way they are at Holy Wisdom Parish Latin Mass Community. I actually like the High Mass better but the time tends to be inconvenient.
The democratic stronghold (pronounced stranglehold) on Chicago deserves nothing less than an appropriate shepherd of the same cloth. Spirits of a feather bed together. The thrill of sheer power and control give some men the feeling of near immortality. United they will fall.
I recently spent two weeks working in Chicago. Cupie can have Chicago and vice versa.
Penquins fan. I know that no new doctrines were defined, but what Vatican II was to never mention some of the past infallible doctrines, or just don’t pay attention to them. One is “no salvation outside the church”. Is that still in force? I’ve never heard a pope or cleric utter that infallible doctrine. Have you ever heard a pope or priest utter the words that Jesus said to the Jews, ” If you don’t believe that I am He, you will die in your own sins.” Or, Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who don’t believe are already condemned.” Do you think that the pope would utter those words to Jews during a inter-religious conference? No, no new doctrines were established, but they just utter the positive quotes from Jesus, not the negative quotes.
Mr. DiCarlo,
The big thing is ecumenism and unity. The Catholic hierarchy has dumbed down Catholic teaching, ostensibly to achieve unity with Protestants. It has failed in a spectacular fashion. But, just like the Democrats, they will not face up to the fact that they have been WRONG.
Protestants went from heretics to be “separated brethren”. Many Protestants still think Catholics worship idols. Orthodox went from schismatics to “a sister church” Most Orthodox still think Catholics left apostolic Christianity. Muslims went from heretics to “brothers in God”.
I stand in no judgment of the people of any of those religious bodies but I refuse to accept their beliefs as equal to my own.
Look, I don’t like what V2 did to the Church. None of it was doctrine or dogma and none of it was needed. the Missal of 1962 should have been used in the vernacular at least in part for those who wanted it and that should have been it. My two sons will learn the Baltimore Catechism, make their first Communion on the tounge kneeling and will NOT sing those dippy songs I sang back in 1972.
Joe De Carlo
On the doctrine, “Extra ecclesiam nula salus,” Bl John Henry Newman writing in 1875, explained, “One of the most remarkable instances of what I am insisting on is found in a dogma, which no Catholic can ever think of disputing, viz., that “Out of the Church, and out of the faith, is no salvation.” Not to go to Scripture, it is the doctrine of St. Ignatius, St. Irenæus, St. Cyprian in the first three centuries, as of St. Augustine and his contemporaries in the fourth and fifth. It can never be other than an elementary truth of Christianity; and the present Pope has proclaimed it as all Popes, doctors, and bishops before him. But that truth has two aspects, according as the force of the negative falls upon the “Church” or upon the “salvation.” The main sense is, that there is no other communion or so called Church, but the Catholic, in which are stored the promises, the sacraments, and other means of salvation; the other and derived sense is, that no one can be saved who is not in that one and only Church. But it does not follow, because there is no Church but one, which has the Evangelical gifts and privileges to bestow, that therefore no one can be saved without the intervention of that one Church” and goes on to note the doctrine of invincible ignorance and that “it is possible to belong to the soul of the Church without belonging to the body.”
Joe D.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus most assuredly HAS been taught, even if it hasn’t been as loud or in the manner you’d prefer; I’m not surprised that priests don’t try to fit a complicated teaching in enough detail to use the phrase.
I don’t think the Pope would go to a conference and say what you put there because he’s not an idiot, nor is he maliciously trying to drive them away– and using the truth to drive folks away from the Truth is perverse. There’s no way that they’d be shocked into rethinking, as was the case when the Lord was speaking.
Being too harsh is just as bad as being too gentle.
Good grief, the “Catholics Come Home” program is built around this teaching.
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Vatican II didn’t bring out any rot that wasn’t already there– it just made it so we could see the rot. If the method of teaching had been up to snuff before, then the lay would’ve known where to look for the actual teachings. If the priests had been trained right, the outbreak of “spirit of” junk wouldn’t have happened.
I do know that when my mom was a kid, there were serious rumors among Protestants that the Catholics were gathering weapons in the basement of the local church, but now I trade prayer requests with some of those same “pray to idols” folks, and know there’s a movement of respect for Our Lady among them, driven in part by Catholics being able to get the idea across that asking her to pray for them is no different an asking (protestant that posed the question) to pray for them.
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They are heretics, but they are also our brothers and sisters. Only one of those things can change, and hopefully will.
Very well expressed Foxfier