The mainstream media is doing its best this week to convince the American public that the anti-vaccination movement is some sort of conservative cause due to statements about vaccines being voluntary made by Rand Paul and Chris Christie. Hattip to Ed Driscoll for the interview below from 2011 that explains that the anti-vaccination movement has almost entirely been a left wing cause:
Last week, Mnookin spoke with Science Insider about why.
S.M.: I think it taps into the organic natural movement in a lot of ways.
Go here to read the rest. Go here to Ed Driscoll for fascinating maps illustrating how the anti-vaccine movement is strongest in those areas most strongly supportive of Obama, and for a Penn and Teller video that profanely sets forth the case for vaccination.
That’s been my experience with the non-vaccinators I know. I only know a few and they are not complete zealots, mostly delayed vaccines rather than refused completely. However, they were all liberal crunchy folks with an interest in alternative non-western medicine. I suppose there are some conservatives of the “I don’t trust the government, and I live on a compound in the woods” types that think vaccines are a conspiracy, but I’ve never met one of those.
I want to be convinced by the vaccination side, but I keep finding that the pro-vaccination people are at least as crazy as the anti-vaccination side. I mean really, listen to the rhetoric just from the excerpted piece.
God forbid anyone question our modern medical system or their motives. Did we not learn through the Obamacare debates that the sick care industry has huge financial interests in manipulating consumers?
The burden of proof is all on the anti-vaccination side. The control of diseases that were common even in my childhood is a product of vaccinations and nothing else. The allegation that autism is caused by vaccines is complete garbage as my family inadvertently demonstrated by having our twin boys receive vaccines at precisely the same times. One lad turned out autistic and the other one just finished a highly successful first semester in law school.
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all
Here’s an interesting timeline on the history of vaccines. If vaccines are some sort of conspiracy to make money by drug companies/government it sure goes back a long way. I suppose when George Washington mandated that the Continental Army be vaccinated against small pox, that was the start of government manipulating us for financial gains or other nefarious purposes.
Well, no, the burden of proof is on the sick care industry to prove that we need every vaccine that they tell us we need, when they say we need it. The vaccine industry says that all women need the HPV virus. There’s controversy over that, and a lot of money to be made by its advocates. Just as with almost every other health care choice. No different here.
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At some point, the pro-vaccination people have to come up with something better than, “we’re right, you’ve evil.”
BTW, I don’t think there is necessarily a connection between autism and vaccines. In fact, I would be surprised if there is one.
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But, contrary to other government advice, I also don’t believe that taxes cause prosperity or that eating 11 servings of grains a day is healthy.
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There is a substantial lack of interest in actual evidence or debate on both sides of this issue.
At some point, the pro-vaccination people have to come up with something better than, “we’re right, you’ve evil.”
We have. Repeatedly. People like you insist on a burden of proof that is impossible – proof that vaccines will harm no person ever.
At any rate, here’s one link for starters.
http://welovegv.com/entries/vaccines/answers-to-mike-adams-21-questions-about-vaccines
“Well, no, the burden of proof is on the sick care industry to prove that we need every vaccine that they tell us we need, when they say we need it.”
Not at all. Vaccination has a track record of hundreds of years. Those opposing vaccines have the burden of establishing why we should cast away the clear benefits of vaccination in stamping out many diseases.
Ira Smith has written about this very issue today, and I think helpfully notes the distinction between conservatives and libertarians. Whenever I hear the arguments of anti-vaccine folks on the right I certainly here the echoes of Ayn Rand.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397852/mandatory-vaccination-conservative-ira-straus
I’m pro-vaccination, but I think jvc raises a good point that NOT EVERY vaccine is necessary or even desirable, and I think the example provided of the HPV vaccine is a legitimate one.
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Surely, the burden is not on parents to show why they don’t think it appropriate to vaccinate their kids with Gardasil?
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I think the flu vaccine is a waste of time and money unless the person receiving it belongs to a particularly susceptible group. Do I need to prove to some 3rd party that it is not necessary for the members of my family to line up for an annual flu vaccination?
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In short, there are vaccinations that I believe every person should receive, and there are others that are of dubious necessity and/or efficacy.
I can’t say I’m surprised at the emotion to my question.
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“People like you insist on a burden of proof that is impossible – proof that vaccines will harm no person ever.”
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This is just a silly straw man. I’ve never said this, nor have I ever thought it.
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You want people to believe whatever a business or government tells you about a product? That’s fine for you, just don’t shove your beliefs in the face of others.
Some common sense from Jay. Thanks.
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Of course, it’s going to be drowned out in the “we’re right, you’re evil” comments from others.
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What amazes me is that I can’t think of any other aspect of life in which these guys would grab their ankles for government.
I can’t say I’m surprised at the emotion to my question.
I provided you a link that thoroughly examines most of the objections to vaccinations, a link that provides links to a series of other studies and reports than further debunk the anti-vaccination paranoia. You chose, instead to ignore it and huff and puff angrily. If anyone is lacking in reason in this debate, it is you. Now if you would like to carefully explain why you think the arguments against the anti-vaccination cause are faulty, I’m all ears. Otherwise I’ll just ignore whatever other bluster you will offer.
Paul, really, calm down.
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“Now if you would like to carefully explain why you think the arguments against the anti-vaccination cause, I’m all ears.”
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Do you want to complete that sentence?
Of course, it’s going to be drowned out in the “we’re right, you’re evil” comments from others.
Offer a substantive comment, and we’ll be willing to listen. Again, all of the reason and proof has been offered by this side of the argument.
I don’t take the flu vaccination Jay while my wife does. My attitude would change if there was a vaccination that could stamp out all flu, not that I expect to see such a vaccine in my time.
Gardasil has been way oversold considering that it does not prevent all cervical cancer, about 70% prevented, and that there are 12,000 cases each year in the US, compared, for example, to three to four million cases each year of measles in the US before the measles vaccine came on line in 1964. Prior to making something mandatory there should be a threshold of a disease being widespread and a hope that the vaccine can largely eliminate the disease.
I’ll just say “ditto” to everything Jay said. I don’t think we need every vaccine that the government or big pharma says we do, nor do I think every vaccine is effective. Look at the flu vaccine for example.
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If you believe that government has your best interest in mind and want to get every vaccine possible, by all means do so. But, please, don’t act like the people producing the product don’t have a vested interest in advancing their business.
“The allegation that autism is caused by vaccines is complete garbage as my family inadvertently demonstrated by having our twin boys receive vaccines at precisely the same times.”
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Thank you, Don. Our experience exactly. One boy is autistic and the other is not. This can easily be put on the fact that my wife is 5’0″ (I’m 6’2″) and added together, my sons were 8 lbs-plus at birth, which was nine weeks early. Boys, multiples and preemies – the vaccination thing never enters the equation.
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BTW, they just turned 18 and never had a debilitating disease, including chicken pox. The autistic one is an avid runner and his brother is looking at a youth-ministry-through-music path.
“But, please, don’t act like the people producing the product don’t have a vested interest in advancing their business.”
Just like farmers do who produce food, or contractors who build houses. The profit motive is a poor per se argument against the utility of a good or service produced. As for government having our best interests at heart, well actually I think almost all governments will have a strong interest in preventing disease epidemics among their populace. One does not have to be a fan of big government to believe that.
Jay’s objections are certainly reasonable. I get the flu shot myself, but I don’t think many people are hankering for mandatory flu vaccinations. Gardisil is a more sensitive topic, but I do think parents should have that the choice in that matter. This discussion is really about vaccines for those diseases – measles, polio, etc. – that are communicable and almost completely wiped out. The non-vaccinaters believe that their decision to not vaccinate only impacts their children, which is simply not the case, as the link I provided above details.
I think there’s some emotion because both sides are having trouble with excluding the middle.
Are vaccines necessary? For viruses, yes, there is no treatment for them otherwise save trying to keep the body alive until it beats the virus.
Is EVERY vaccine necessary? Debatable. All things in life are tradeoffs and there’s something to be said for taking things on a case by case basis and letting people make decisions in their own best interest.
It seems to me every time I’ve watched these debates break out, there’s a lot more issues (boiling down to the nature of society & freedom) being bundled up in the discussion than just one aspect of medicine. Yet it’s all so rarely fruitful as nobody seems willing to untangle that bundle.
Minor science note: Part of the issue with that is that “the flu” is more of a term covering a VERY wide range of viruses. Talking about a vaccine to wipe out the flu is rather like talking about hunters wiping out all animals. (Yes hunters can wipe out SOME animals (like the dodo bird) but ALL animals?)
I don’t think all vaccines should be mandatory for everyone. Not everyone needs a flu shot, for example. Make that decision for yourself based on your own risk factors. I always get it because I take care of small children, and I can’t afford to be out of commission for weeks with the flu. That’s my choice. That’s not the same thing as the MMR, polio, etc. I know the HPV vaccine is controversial, but if it’s safe then I’m getting it for my kids. If I can prevent or lessen the risk of a serious disease with just a shot, I’m doing it. If someone makes money off my choice, good for them. That’s capitalism.
I was vaccinated for smallpox, following the outbreak in Bradford in 1962. I recall the French authorites insisted on a certificate for travellers from the UK. That, as I recall, was the last UK outbreak, except for a lab accident in 1972. Five years later, the last naturally occuring case was recorded in Somalia.
Now, smallpox is an interesting case. There are no carriers (as in typhoid), no animal reservoir (as in maleria) and it was antigenically stable (unlike ‘flu). If vaccination were ever to succede in eradicating a disease, smallpox was the prime candidate.
Not directly related to the discussion, but I note that the face of RFK Jr adorns the top of this blog post entry as an anti-vaccinationist. He is also anti-nuclear power, pro-abortion, pro-sodomy. In fact, he along with NY Gov Andy Cuomo has been fighting tooth and nail to shut down 2000 MWe of clean safe electricity on the Hudson River, and it looks like these two men could sadly succeed, all for the lives of mere fish:
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http://news.yahoo.com/judge-allows-hearings-summer-closings-york-nuclear-plant-144826987–finance.html
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Liberals oppose controls against disease in humans (but will do whatever it takes to protect fish). Liberals oppose the birth of new human beings (but not fish eggs at the intakes to Indian Point!). Liberals oppose the stability of marriage between one man and one woman (but not fish reproduction in the Hudson River!). Liberals oppose safe clean cheap electrical power. And the same liberals (living in adulterous relationships – both Cuomo and RFK Jr) who do and say these things parade themselves up for the Holy Sacrament to be received from the hand of Bp Hubbard of Albany or Abp Dolan of NYC.
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No, I believe in nothing RFK Jr says about vaccination because I know the lies he disseminates about nuclear energy, and I know how immorally he leads his personal life in public (it would be different if he had a modicum of common sense and stopped parading his promiscuity about, calling it a 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage).
Is that an ad hominem attack? Well sometimes you have to know the character of a man before giving anything he says any credence.
I see that Mark Shea is trying to link the right-wing to anti-vaccination fanaticism. He’s for vaccination, but his increasing leftist sympathies is blinding him to the real source of this wrong headed movement. Read the sorry saga here. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2015/02/the-growing-right-wing-fascination-with-quackery.html This is coming from a man who doesn’t understand (willfully) the difference between waterboarding and the actual torture technique used by the Japanese in WWII.
I’m playing devils advocate here…
What about the belief, held by a particular friend of mine, who observed her baby stop meeting vital milestones in development after receiving a childhood vaccine- the baby is now a 10 year old with severe autism- she cannot talk.
Her strongly held belief is that vaccines are safe and ok for the majority, but her child was in the minority who had adverse reactions to a childhood vaccination. And it’s this minority that modern medicine ignore because of the “greater good”. And if the issues arising with this minority is addressed then perhaps there is room for improvement when it comes to vaccinations as no child should be thrown under the bus, so to speak, in the pursuit of the greater good.
A thought worth addressing…
Stephen,
I’ve noticed something similar recently with feminism. I’ve been slowly catching up on Stacy McCain’s “sex trouble” series, where he examines feminism, seriously. One doesn’t have to go very far in the series before running across things that would seem to make it pretty incompatible with Catholic teaching. (I can provide links upon request, not doing so right now less this comment get stuck in moderation.)
Yet go check on a search at Shea’s site. “Feminism”? Returns 3 pages of results and most of those are along the lines of “Radical Feminism (not all feminism)”. Meanwhile do a search for “Ayn Rand” and you get a whopping 6 pages. Think about the contrast. For Shea, a majority of the leading leaders and intellectuals of the feminist movement are not enough to discredit it, but 1 single person who has written some things about that some members agree with, is enough to discredit all of libertarianism.
At some point one wonders if Shea’s reasoning boils down to the old “feelz before realz” philosophy.
The problem, Ezabelle, is that it is a belief that is not necessarily substantiated by verifiable proof. As one doctor explained earlier on the radio, one of the reasons people associate autism with vaccinations is due to the fact that children are often diagnosed at the same age that they happen to receive these shots, and I think parents misunderstand that correlation does not mean causation.
That being said, there are children who do have bad reactions to vaccinations. What a parent has to weigh is this: is it more likely my child will have adverse reactions to an immunization, or is my child more likely to suffer a debilitating illness due to not having a vaccination. I think the heavy weight of evidence shows that the true gamble is to not vaccinate.
First, sympathy to your friend.
Second, that’s all fair enough, the big problem is that currently there’s no way of telling who is in that minority or not. So that’s kind of that trade off question: what do you do? Vaccinate no one to avoid some suffering, or vaccinate everyone in spite of some suffering that will happen?
Once the medicine gets to the point that maybe testing can be done and determine beforehand whether adverse reactions will happen or not with vaccines, we’ll have the perfect solution. Until then… we’re stuck with no great option.
Shea is someone who simply regurgitates popular talking points and reflects uncritically on current memes. The best idea is to simply ignore the man.
I once had a discussion with a friend of mine from my wedding party. This woman is now dean of a nursing school.
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About 35 children die in the U.S. each year from vaccine adverse reactions. This statistic got me thinking: might it be possible to test infants for the possibility of adverse reactions, and then excuse the positives from mandatory vaccination? The rest of us would be vaccinated with more confidence, and the ‘herd effect’ would protect the unvaccinated to better effect than it does today.
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My friend didn’t think much of the idea. She felt that in the end such an effort would prove that those 35 children would turn out to have a serious underlying condition, and most would die young anyway. I was startled by the hardness of her statement, and had to face the fact that she was probably right. It’s called a vale of tears for a reason.
So, someone remarked that if you don’t post links, your comment will get posted. So, I’m trying again to get posted without links…
We are blessed with 4 children (born between the years ’92-’96). Their vaccinations (with each infant) were administered sooner and sooner. Our first two are healthy and developed normally. Our second two have autism. So very many want to “close the books” and say that “science has proven that the vaccinations do not cause autism.” I don’t believe them. I’m not certain it is the only cause of autism, but I certainly believe it has been one of the highest contributing factors. From the right or left is not the issue. Let’s face it, tens of thousands of illegal immigrants crossing our borders hasn’t helped since they were relocated all over the country. This is the cause of the outbreak (if there is one).
Those who want to say, “Science has spoken, nothing here, let’s move on…” as in the article, “…But that hasn’t stopped thousands of people from refusing to vaccinate their children out of fear that they could become autistic. Mnookin warns of grave consequences. Recent outbreaks of measles, whooping cough, and other preventable infections have sickened thousands of children and killed more than a dozen in the United States. Vaccine rates are falling below the level needed to prevent an outbreak in a growing number of communities, including ones with wealthy, educated populations…”
So, Mnookin WARNS of GRAVE CONSEQUENCES (who is fear mongoring?) and …sickened thousands of children and killed more than a DOZEN in the U.S.
What is the current percentage of children developing autism per birth? I disagree with Mnookin. The grave consequences are what they probably have done to so many, many lives.
These vaccines did not exist when I was a child. We had our bouts with measles, mumps, chicken pox, and I had not known anyone who died from those “childhood illnesses.”
I believe the only way the verdict on vaccines will be found is when vaccines are stopped…wouldn’t it be interesting to see parents caring for their children through their childhood illnesses coupled with a major decline in autism diagnoses.
These vaccines did not exist when I was a child. We had our bouts with measles, mumps, chicken pox, and I had not known anyone who died from those “childhood illnesses.”
No one?
http://www.roalddahlfans.com/articles/meas.php
Not having been of age when these diseases were more prevalent, they certainly seem harmless to me.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/please-vax-your-kids#.dvN6Bpq4Zj
Ditto Paul’s last comment about he-who-should-be-ignored. The fact that person is trying to pin the anti-vax tag on the right is proof positive that he has become little more than a leftist trying to score rhetorical points.
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I personally know a few anti-vax folks, and TO A PERSON they are ALL on the political left. (That’s not counting people I know from social media, but people who I actually know.)
To be fair, there is definitely some anti-vaccine sentiment on the right, but it is inspired more by mistrust of the government and authority. Leftist opposition tends more to the anti-GMO, anti-technology, let’s all revert to cavemen times sentiment.
Mariann,
I understand your point. However, I am pro-vaccination. Yet I find myself holding my breath the week before and after Ive taken each of my children for their vaccines…
As you mention, your children had their vaccines brought forward each time- this correlates with your children’s autism diagnosis.
I understand PZ’s point that proof is needed to establish the link, otherwise we are talking superstition and not science. And I also understand the “coincidence” between the vaccination periods and childhood diagnosis of autism.
However, this friend who I referred to in my previous comment, has 5 children- the oldest 3 have developmental issues – the oldest is Aspergers and the 3rd is autism (of which I previously referred). She didn’t vaccinate the youngest two, and they have no health or developmental issues at all.
I guess, mothers like yourself Mariann, and my friend, need not be dismissed. If there is a belief held by your own witness and experience, then it needs to be addressed scientifically and proven that the link is impossible. Otherwise the possibility will still remain.
Afterall, if a vaccine can be developed to be better and safer, then it should.
It’s a difficult dilemma for those that can’t shake off the “hunch” that the vaccination “caused” the autism.
The anti-vaccination lobby will generate more suspicion in the mind of the public toward vaccinations, if people like Mariann are ignored.
Mariann, your idea is implausible. The increase is autism diagnosis does not track with vaccination introduction, it tracks with changes is diagnosis criteria. A study in South Korea demonstrated that their latter introduction of U.S. standards resulted in a diagnosis increase unlinked to vaccines, or at least without the same links perceived in the U.S.
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But, science is science. Your idea of stopping vaccinations would be a valid scientific test. But “wouldn’t it be interesting to see parents caring for their children through their childhood illnesses coupled with a major decline in autism diagnoses” wouldn’t be the outcome. Assuming that people would be forced to stop infant day-care – and Disneyland trips – during such an experiment, the results would be in within 24-36 months as to whether autism actually declined (it should not). By the time the test subjects came of nursery school age we would know for sure that autism is not related to vaccines and we would start vaccinations before they would be in school. Most parents would never get to care for a traditional childhood illness.
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BTW, I write this as the father of a daughter who is on the spectrum, the father in law of a young man with Asperger’s, and the godfather of another with Asperger’s.
Fear is conquering many, unfortunately, regarding the vac. debate.
As to Mr. Zummo’s GMO group think??
I’ll stay with my organic tomatoes. You can keep the tasteless gmo verities if you wish.
Please excuse me for interrupting what is a interesting thread.
Are there vaccines that use aborted fetal matter? If so, is this part of the refusal of vaccines?
I’ll stay with my organic tomatoes. You can keep the tasteless gmo verities if you wish.
Hey, no arguments from me there. If you want to pay more for food and pretend that it tastes better, knock yourself out. 🙂
I don’t want to take away the importance of this topic, vaccinations.
I just found it funny you linked in GMO’s with leftist overtones. Monsanto stock helping your investment portfolio Mr. Z?
I probably fall into the “jay” camp. I don’t particularly trust the government or “big” anything to have our best interests at heart, but none of us individually really have the resources to accurately evaluate the risks involved, so we have to rely on the big boys. Best compromise seems to be proven vaccines can be mandatory (with exceptions for individual medical care provider judgment), newer ones optional until some track record is established. The recent sterility drug additive in Africa allegations does give one pause.
Monsanto stock helping your investment portfolio Mr. Z?
Got me, Philip. I’m just elbow deep in that Monsatan cash.
I just wanted to tip my hat to Mrs. Z for her reference to General Washington’s farsighted smallpox inoculation program, which is an unsung contributor to the Continental Army’s successful prosecution of the War.
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Huzzah, Mrs. Z!
It was blatantly rude to attack your character Mr. Zummo. I apologize.
God be with you.
A very early champion of vaccination was the unlikely Cotton Mather:
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/cotton-mather-and-inoculation/
Philip, I assure you I didn’t take it personally. The GMO debate is a side issue, and I’d be happy to discuss another time.
God bless.
Thanks Mr. Zummo.
I’ll be looking forward to learning the facts from the conservative point of view regarding GMO’s.
Peace.
Mariann wrote, “wouldn’t it be interesting to see parents caring for their children through their childhood illnesses”
Good luck nursing a child through rabies, cholera, typhoid, polio, tuberculosis, yellow fever, tick-borne encephalitis or a bad case of tetanus.
The mainstream media is doing its best this week to convince the American public that the anti-vaccination movement is some sort of conservative cause due to statements about vaccines being voluntary made by Rand Paul and Chris Christie.
They were doing it before that– as soon as their previously popular stance started to have effects that made them look bad, they started scrambling wildly to conflate “vaccines are poison!” with, as Mrs. Z so nicely put it, something you should decide “for yourself based on your own risk factors.”
When I am accused of being an “anti-vaxxer” for not jumping on to prudential points that are not even informed of the facts, there’s something wrong.
(some of my sins: pointing out that vaccines are not magic and not zero risk;
saying it’s not needful to ban the voluntarily unvaccinated from school to protect the medically unvaccinated because if there’s an outbreak, the viruses don’t care if you’re unvaccinated because of a doctor’s waiver, and there’s already a standard of removing the unvaccinated during an outbreak;
saying some vaccines are grown in stem cell lines from aborted children, and offering proof;
pointing out that I never believed that vaccines cause autism, although I do know people who consistently get ill after the flu vaccine*, and my husband is one of those who had to be hospitalized from the smallpox vaccine.)
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* Because folks always hear this as “the vaccine gave me the flu,” when it’s not: I am one of the folks. It happened every single year when I was in the Navy, and when I was pregnant with the Baron while my husband was deployed– I was being cautious, you see, and got vaccinated. Each time, I get sicker than I’ve ever been from the flu. My theory is that I catch something from the other folks who are there getting vaccinated, possibly enabled by (simplification!) my immune system being distracted by dealing with the flu. Since I turned 16– an age where I can be fairly sure that I’m not forgetting an illness– I have had exactly two illnesses not inside of a month of being vaccinated for the flu– and while the one that wasn’t part of a ship-board epidemic was worse than my average reaction, it was far less severe than my reaction while pregnant.
I’d think that I have an undiagnosed allergy, but family members can also catch whatever strikes me down. Staying home with the kids makes the math a lot simpler than those who have to calculate the risk from their exposure to everyone at work, their spouses’ work, plus however many daycares their kids go to.