When is the Swiss Guard Going to Disarm?

 

SwissGuard

I assume the Pope will now be having the Swiss Guard disarmed, and foreswearing any and all protection by the Italian police and military:

 

People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian, Pope Francis said on Sunday.

Francis issued his toughest condemnation to date of the weapons industry at a rally of thousands of young people at the end of the first day of his trip to the Italian city of Turin.

“If you trust only men you have lost,” he told the young people in a long, rambling talk about war, trust and politics after putting aside his prepared address.

“It makes me think of … people, managers, businessmen who call themselves Christian and they manufacture weapons. That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn’t it?” he said to applause.

He also criticized those who invest in weapons industries, saying “duplicity is the currency of today … they say one thing and do another.”

Go here to read the rest.  I assume this is in line with the Pope’s ridiculous belief that arms manufacturers start wars, rather than the nations involved in the wars, like Argentina did when it took the Falklands in 1982, the Pope having praised the Argentine war dead in that conflict as having fought for Argentina.

The prepared texts by this Pontiff are no day at the beach as to either logic or sometimes even sanity, but where we really go into Cloud Kookooland is when he goes off text and we get the full brunt of the often bizarre thoughts rattling around his skull.  Message to the future conclave:  please do not pick a loon as pontiff this time.

 

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63 Comments

  1. “weapons industry”
    Such a catchall target. Does this include my favorite 20 gauge rabbit gun, my compound bow, my filet knife, or the bear spray for my back yard critters ?(all controlled as weapons in my state.)
    The UN has certain lusts to control all these, as well and many in positions of power, who would love for the rest f mankind to be disarmed.

    Maybe we’ll find out in the fall when all this climate change nonsense comes to a head.
    Does this “inequality” include God’s creature–man–having as equal a means of protection as the bad guys?

  2. I suppose he might also mean all members of the NRA? Does my Ruger Single Six make me a non-Christian even if it’s not loaded? Am I still a Christian if I only use the .22 to plink with? How about my S&W .38 special for protection? Good grief. This is getting…check that…this has moved way beyond the “how embarrassing is this Pontiff” point.

  3. I wonder at times about the Pope’s remark regarding his pontificate. He was pondering the length of time of his life. If I recall he said he may have only a few years left..( to that effect ). It’s interesting to me because providence very well could call him home before serious damage is done within the Holy Catholic Church. Damage to the souls of the Billion of Catholics.
    I continue to struggle with separating the Chair of Peter from the occupant of that chair.

    In God we place all our trust. I pray for Holy Church and these strange times that are upon us. Jesus, guide and protect us on our journey home.

  4. Hope and Change! It appears that Pope Francis’ and his PR men are parroting democrat party propaganda memes. Original thinkers . . .

    Social justice! If a “catholic” Liberal may vote abortion democrat, you may retain your arms (Second Amendment) and your NRA membership. I divert pennies to the NRA that I would have given to Peter’s Pence.

  5. I presume the next papal encyclical will be about the evils of weapons manufacturing. Can’t wait for that one.

  6. This again shows more of the hypocrisy of Pope Francis. Just as he advocates the abolition of air conditioners for you and me, but won’t give his own up, so also does he advocate the abolition of weapons protection for you and me, but likewise won’t give his own up. He is like all liberal progressive elitists: he knows what is good for you and me, but such good does not apply to him who stands above the fray.
    .
    PS, what would Pope Franci say to the Maccabean brothers who wth force of arms turned that evil tyrant Antiochus IV Epiphanes back? Or better yet, what would he say to Jesus Himself who said in Luke 22:36:
    .
    Et qui non habet, vendat tunicam suam et emat gladium.
    .
    Oh, I forgot, the Pope only knows Spanish and Italian, not Latin (otherwise surely his encyclical would have been written in the language of the Church as Benedict XVI did his?):
    .
    And he who has not, let him sell his coat and buy a sword.

  7. Note that the co-ruling GOP’s anti-conservative top-gun (pun intended) Karl Rove, has also come out fully against the second amendment–hence, a person’s right to defend themselves against either the unleashed anarchists that are celebrated in our sick culture or any tyrannical power.
    That might now mean that both parties, the UN, and the pope seem to be unified on much of this.
    Things appear to be coming to a head. Pray harder

  8. In the same address he said this:

    “The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn’t they bomb (the railway lines)?”

  9. Because we have intelligence and love, we are to lead all creatures in the universe to the creator (roughly paraphrasing par 83 of encyclical). I presume this includes plant and insect life too. So no guns, no hunting, and of course no mowing the lawn. I need to tell my hunting dogs they’re unemployed.

  10. “If you trust only men you have lost,”

    Does that mean we shouldn’t trust climate scientists?

  11. “The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn’t they bomb (the railway lines)?”

    Yeah that does contradict the overall anti-weapon theme. Of course he falls into the conspiracy worldview he seems to be congenial with instead of becoming familiar with the issue:

    1. The accuracy of bombing in WWII was very bad and quite likely many of the prisoners in the camp would have been killed.
    2. Auschwitz would have been at the extreme range of even our most advanced bombers in 44 and 45 and the Soviets were notoriously difficult about our planes using their bases.
    3. The Nazis would have simply moved prisoners to other death camps.
    4. The best, and only, way to save the victims of the Third Reich was to win the war as quickly as possible.
    Considering the cozying up to Nazi Germany by Argentina during the War, and the refuge Argentina gave to Nazi war criminals after the War, having an Argentinian Pontiff rail about this rubs me the wrong way.

  12. A number of my non-Catholic FB conspiracy theorist friends are convinced the Pope is The Anti-Christ. Hmm, might they have a point? If gun manufacturers are anti-Christian, and we must trust in God and not Smith & Wesson, then surely the man who hides behind guns and clearly doesn’t trust his fellow man has some significant anti-Christian issues.

  13. “are convinced the Pope is The Anti-Christ.”

    Naw. After a run in good pontiffs we simply got a bum one this time. Needless to say, this is not an uncommon occurrence in the history of the Church. It is a great pity, but the Church will make her way through this.

  14. “….we are to lead all creatures…”
    The absolute ignorance and hypocrisy of the “all creatures are good/endangered species/ equality is biodiversity” mindset, is that it always stops at the door of living viruses such as HIV, living cancer cells etc.

    Again, if you call the holes part of the Swiss cheese, you will soon starve to death eating just holes. There is in the natural world, much evil. We cannot worship it (pantheism) nor pretend that it is all good, and heaver will arrive here if only we don’t overuse toilet paper and computers.

  15. “The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn’t they bomb (the railway lines)?”
    Yeah that does contradict the overall anti-weapon theme. Of course he falls into the conspiracy worldview he seems to be congenial with instead of becoming familiar with the issue:”

    I have a simple view of the modernism vs post modernism ideologies. Modernism falsely pits reason v religion to “synthesize” (Hagel, Marx, et al) a new reality. In that reality the “spirit” is the state. The triumph of these ideologies is post modernism, which is simply reason at war with itself—consuming itself in the delusion of its own constructs of reality. That is why to them history offers no insights about humanity, facts are disregarded, and traditions are to be ignored, That is why someone who loves freedom, has faith in God revealed, and nourishes the distinctly divine gift to humanity known as reason, cannot carry on a “dialogue” with a post modernist. Some of the symptoms of a post modern “thinker” include the use of the emotive, ie feelings, over logic, and of course the misuse of language to synthesize a new reality, such as that found in the call to an “ecological cultural revolution”. And because we are ignorant, we sheeple, must be controlled by the uber state, and re-educated…..as is called for in the encyclical.

  16. I ponder dear Francis demanding that David lay down his evil sling as the giant Goliath approached menacingly.

    I also (sorry-a bit unrelated) ponder his demanding Caesar take that last penny from the poor charitable woman that the state might better redistribute it to the poor.

    Shall we shut down the CO2 belching planes and choppers that are rushing kidneys and hearts to medical facility to save the eco-systems? Such things are indeed poor economics.

    Will we hear a call to eradicate the scimitar industry that is surely the cause of beheading poor Christians in the mid-east?

    Where does advancement become evil, but if not first in the minds and souls of men that the Church has failed to reach, while it frets about fracking?

    I fear “hope and change” by any of its many names.

  17. Don L wrote, “There is in the natural world, much evil…”
    That is only a seeming.
    “All nature is but art, unknown to thee;
    All chance, direction, which thou canst not see;
    All discord, harmony not understood;
    All partial evil, universal good:
    And, spite of pride in erring reason’s spite,
    One truth is clear, whatever is, is right.”

  18. I have a perfect solution to all this. If the Pope doesn’t like weapons, the people who have to use them, and the people who manufacture them, then let those who have guns stop protecting him. If the Pope doesn’t like fossil fuel and nuclear supplied electricity, then let the electric company cut off his living quarters and the gasoline comappnies refuse to fuel his vehicles. Let him live as a 12th century Pontiff would live without the protection of firearms and without the convenience of electricity and motorized transport. I am sick and tired of all these liberal progressive elitists. Let them live right back in nature with all its brutality. I am zero respect for idiots who demand we do one things while they do another.

  19. Really, really hoping that having a conspiracy-theory minded Pope is getting through to some folks who’ve felt alienated for the last however many years, because it really does get kind of embarrassing.

    It makes sense in the, to steal a phrase. “Merchants of death” (or, for pop culture points, “Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie”).
    It just doesn’t work so well in dealing with real people. Well, other than maybe Russia, or some of the Middle East?

  20. Personally, I have no trouble believing that the Pope indeed spouted this nonsense about weapons and hypocrisy but I am wondering why the only news agency who reported this is Reuters. I posted about the Pope’s words on another blog and was questioned as to why every single report out there about this references only back to Reuters, and no one else. Can anyone clue me in about the ways of sources, etc. Is it a problem that only Reuters actually reported this latest Papal blunder? Just wonderin’.

  21. Back to my much earlier question that has now become sort of my ‘mantra’: ‘What the h _ _ _ happened in that conclave????

  22. @TLM: Maybe the Holy Spirit decided to give Catholics the pope so many wanted.

    1st Samuel 8 should be a lesson to all Christians that God giving you want you ask for isn’t always a mercy…

  23. PZ on Monday, June 22, A.D. 2015 at 6:02am

    In the same address he said this:
    “The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn’t they bomb (the railway lines)?”

    Perhaps and despite his blame game about arms traders, the Pope does recognize the evil of totalitarian ideologies calling for centralized control over humanity (though not including the greens because they mean well and have ‘science’ on their side))and the need to address such evil. Then perhaps, putting aside comments such as arms traders are evil (hear that you folks who work for defense contractors) and that Islam is a religion of peace, the Pope is now calling for a military mission of mercy to save the innocent from Boko Haram, ISIS, Iran, etc., so as to avoid what he inaptly describes took place in WWII. Then again, maybe I just woke up from a bad dream.

  24. LOL….the Shoah would still be going on if Germany alone had a weapons industry. Pity the scrupulous Catholic father working for Colt or Sig Sauer who takes these papal speeches seriously as counsel on cooperation in sin…and has five children to support.

  25. So the pope went off script and went into a long, rambling speech. A hilarious thought just occurred to me. Can you imagine what kind of a conversation would ensue if Pope Francis spoke off script, with pres. o. when his teleprompter is broken?

  26. Remember it is only Catholic teaching that we have to follow. Climate change is really population control which is against doctrine. It is paganism.

  27. Susan on Monday, June 22, A.D. 2015 at 6:28pm
    Remember it is only Catholic teaching that we have to follow. Climate change is really population control which is against doctrine. It is paganism.

    Susan—as someone reminded me in another post, the Pope expressly states he’s against population control. We are left to be dazzled how his proposed uber state will control now poisonous, but otherwise life sustaining, CO2 such that this gas will be reduced substantially and quickly to quell the rising seas and mitigate the tropical onslaught encroaching on the poles given what he describes as an urgent crisis . After all, fossil fuels are evil, free enterprise is bad, air conditioning is an unnecessary luxury, the northern hemisphere stole from the southern half, global warming has caused mass migration, etc. Somehow we are to produce food, transport it, feed the world, produce medicines, house and clothe the poor, and all this without reliance on fossil fuels, ie, power. We are told to rely on the uber state. Personnel is policy and this Pope has chosen to associate with some of the true believers in population control….and we are to believe what exactly?

  28. This is no pope. He speaks with fork tongue. A little faith in Catholicism here. A little faith in Marxism here. A little faith in naturalism here. A little faith in positive laws here. What is this Belief in everything? This is no pope.

  29. Whoa! I think you’ve got these waaaay off base! I will not claim to be a huge fan of Francis, but the remarks highlighted in the original posting say something entirely different from what the author and commenters think. I spent over a decade either in the military or preparing for such service. I understand these remarks very differently.

    Pope Francis isn’t declaring that everyone needs to be rid of their personal guns or disband their military services. No, he’s more accurately warning us against the folly of investing LARGE quantities of personal or national monies in industries who focus solely on making weapons. He’s warning us against the danger of depending on military capability as our sole or primary means of changing the world. His comments even as presented here differ rather little from the ideas that Eisenhower presented back in the 50’s. Said former President warned us against the dangers of the military industrial complex.

    Francis isn’t demanding that we disarm ourselves and disband our military. Instead, he’s challenging us to reconsider our approach to world affairs, demanding that we also consider morals and virtue as we conduct our efforts to promote ourselves abroad.

  30. “The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn’t they bomb (the railway lines)?”

    Interestingly enough, they DID bomb the railway lines. …And lots of other targets too. All over France, possibly Poland, definitely Germany, including at Dresden. …And the pacifist community screams almost as loudly about THAT last as they do about Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They do so because they think that the German army, being mostly defeated already anyway, should’ve been allowed to retreat without hindrance. Only problem was, even if they were effectively defeated, said armies had not yet given up and were not surrendering.
    …Yet…

  31. Sorry for the multiple posts, but I can’t resist replying to one.
    *
    @TLM: ‘What the h _ _ _ happened in that conclave????
    *
    Methinks: h _ _ _ happened in that conclave, that’s what!

  32. “Pope Francis isn’t declaring that everyone needs to be rid of their personal guns or disband their military services. No, he’s more accurately warning us against the folly of investing LARGE quantities of personal or national monies in industries who focus solely on making weapons.”

    You have to read these remarks John with an awareness of his prior remarks that the Pope blames arms manufacturers for starting all wars. He views them as evil men in a morality play. He also believes that capitalism relies on wealth generated by wars. In short, in this area the Pope believes a lot of things that simply are false factually.

  33. Donald–you raise what is becoming an important tool in “understanding” this Pope. His off the cuff remarks are critical insights—and IMHO not so off the cuff. Reflect back on his comments such as “breeding like rabbits” and the Church can’t be about only abortion, birth control and homosexuality. Like a programmed progressive, he consistently sets up antithetical straw men such that we now must synthesize a new construct. So here we are with this encyclical calling for ecological virtues, identifying CO2 as a singular environmental doomsday cause, calling for an ecological world government, objectifying classes of people, etc. Pay attention to his mostly angry straw man remarks—they are windows into his thinking and ideology.

    And as to his remarks about bombing rail lines blah blah blah, we live in odd times rich in irony. This Pope chose to make this criticism while having decided to recognize a Palestinian state which is now co-run by Hamas, the terrorist group sworn to wipe out the Jews…..and having attempted to kill many using underground “lines”. There is something very wrong, almost frighteningly so. Pray for the Church

  34. “You have to read these remarks John with an awareness of his prior remarks that the Pope blames arms manufacturers for starting all wars….”

    Here again, Don, I think you’re interpreting his remarks quite poorly. Nations, not manufacturers, begin wars, but when nations have strong military capabilities, they’re always tempted to use them. Justified or not. He’s not as far wrong about weapons manufacturers starting wars as you think: By better preparing ourselves to fight wars, we inherently adopt a stronger “we vs they” point of view. When you mix that with the weapons manufacturer’s need to make a profit, we can easily fall prey to the idea that we can “win” with military force.
    *sigh* Sadly, someone can easily interpret that to mean that I oppose having a well-trained, well-equipped military force. I do not. If anything, I worry that our armed forces have become too small and poorly equipped. Weaponry will wear out and people will lose their sharp warrior’s edge without training and exercise.
    At the same time, given the dim regard that we, as a nation, exercise toward the value of human life and the disgust we have, as a nation, for being holy, Pope Francis warnings have ample merit.
    Seems to me that we could do ourselves and the world a great deal of good by focusing much more attention on the civic virtue to be advanced by a sound use of the Fine Arts, but for the most part, our US bishops seem to be almost as tone deaf to that idea as the rest of the nation.

  35. I worry that our armed forces have become too small and poorly equipped.

    Why? We won’t be tempted to use our forces with poor equipment and won’t be adopting a stronger “we vs they” POV so what’s the problem? What are you worried about? Being armed or not? You just talked about how tempted nations can be, then complain about that temptation being taken away??

  36. “Justified or not. He’s not as far wrong about weapons manufacturers starting wars as you think:”

    Yes he is, and he doesn’t know what he is talking about in his “Merchants of Death” conspiracy view of history. We really need to stop making excuses for the man simply because he is Pope.

    More wars have been caused by military weakness, which invites aggression, than military strength. George Washington knew what he was talking about: “To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.”

  37. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
    If you want peace, prepare for war.
    De Re Militari
    Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
    .
    Et qui non habet, vendat tunicam suam et emat gladium.
    And he who has not, let him sell his coat and buy a sword.
    Gospel of St. Luke 22:36
    Jesus Christ

  38. I like conspiracy theories, but he keeps picking the lame ones. (Even though the first Iron Man movie did do a really good job of making the “evil due to indifference arms maker” thing work.(

  39. “You just talked about how tempted nations can be, then complain about that temptation being taken away??”

    Yes, Nate, I did and I do. I am quite concerned that we will very poorly handle the balance between being adequately prepared to fight a war and being too willing to use the force capabilities that we’ve amassed.

    “We won’t be tempted to use our forces with poor equipment and won’t be adopting a stronger “we vs they” POV so what’s the problem?”

    I think you’d be well advised to look closely at the state of our nation and our armed forces before we entered WW II. Partly because we have the benefit of hindsight and not having to live through it, we don’t remember how poorly equipped our armed forces were at the time, nor how much struggle we had to arm ourselves to defeat the Germans. We too easily forget that much of what we take for granted today was still very much an open question in 1943.
    Similar concerns apply to Korea, Vietnam, and really, Desert Storm. We’ve rarely been well-prepped to handle the fight that presents itself.

    “Yes he is, and he doesn’t know what he is talking about in his “Merchants of Death” conspiracy view of history. We really need to stop making excuses for the man simply because he is Pope.”

    I think he’s pointing to a reality we don’t wish to see. It’s true enough that nations and the peoples in them start wars, not those who produce weapons. Even so, someone with less virtuous motives may exploit a simmering anger, stoke it into a burning flame, and profit immensely from the weapons that’re required for the fight that follows.

  40. We’ve rarely been well-prepped to handle the fight that presents itself.

    And yet war still came anyway. Therefore your theory about nations & temptation are quite obviously not true and disproved by your own evidence.

    Even so, someone with less virtuous motives may exploit a simmering anger, stoke it into a burning flame, and profit immensely from the weapons that’re required for the fight that follows.

    But you’ve already debunked this worry yourself. Stop panicking over unicorn stampedes and bother your mind only with what’s real. Like Jesus told us, there’s enough real, actual stuff to worry about, don’t go inventing more.

  41. The animal rights extremists, who completely reject the Creation in which God placed man above the rest of the animal kingdom, are just thrilled with Pope Francis and some of his statements.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/world/europe/dogs-in-heaven-pope-leaves-pearly-gate-open-.html?referrer=

    Now, after having indicated that animals have eternal souls, he is indicating that species have rights.

    Nothing could fit the animal rights extremists agenda, against humans & freedom, any better.

  42. “Nations, not manufacturers, begin wars, but when nations have strong military capabilities, they’re always tempted to use them. ”

    I suppose this thinking also assumes all men to be rapists-merely because they are so armed?

  43. TLM, to answer your question, “What happened in that conclave?” Basically, a revolution and the bad guys won. A plan was hatched by an extremely powerful (clue: and elegant) US cardinal and his famous predecessor to put Bergoglio in. The leader in votes was a “papabile” from Canada. (If you are a Church-watcher, you will know what 3 men I am talking about.) This front-runner, knowing the next vote would make him pope, addressed his brother cardinals and asked them not to elect him. I do not know if this was a heartfelt declaration and he believed he was not suited for the job, or it he was in on the plan with “Team Bergoglio.” The ringleader got most of those cardinals votes shifted to Bergoglio. This sort of semi-conspiracy is against conclave rules and some opine the election was actually invalidated due to the rustling of votes beforehand and during, which would mean Bergoglio is not truly the pope. The core group that has now risen to power in the Vatican are about 30 cardinals and bishops who are of the same leftist and anti-Catholic mindset as Bergoglio. The “gang of 9”, the leaders of the Synod, and other key pontifical appointments all reflect “values” never before given predominance in the Church. Based on the bombastic and deprecating remarks by many of these men publicly, it seems they are really feeling their power. By the same token, the Pope has dismissed and even attacked clerics who are “traditional” and destroyed a few Catholic groups and religious orders, confiscated the lands of 2 groups, appointed lay people with views akin to Hillary, etc. Many times openly ridiculed anyone he considers too “rigid” or not liberal enough. The other now-dominant bishops jump on the bandwagon with impunity, sometimes degrading themselves with the crude tone and harsh words and tone of Slate or HuffPo. Their intentions? I cannot read minds, but if I had to judge by actions, I would say a radical transformation of the Church is now underway… and it was deliberate and carefully planned.

  44. Perhaps His Holiness will soon clarify Reuters report of his comments, or perhaps not. Our progressive politicians will likely not lose time in using them in their quest to disarm us.
    Gun-control will never replace self-control. Unless we are willing to deprive everyone of their personal liberty, there will be unfortunate events. Murder is not new. It goes back to Cain and Able. It is illogical to react as politicians are wont to do with more laws that will accomplish nothing. Laws enough were violated in the case of young Mr. Roof.
    I think it was Cicero who long ago said, “Fury will find its weapon”. The utopians among us ignore this basic truth in their quest to control us all in all things.

  45. Joanne,
    I’ve come across this kind of argument before. It’s the same sort of conspiracy theory as those who claim that Card Siri only declined the papacy due to coercion. I’ve also read a few theories about how John Paul II, Paul VI, or another pope after Vatican II did not truly hold the Keys because of some allegation about promoting heresy or some other notion. I’ve even read assertions about John Paul II ultimately being declared an anti-pope by an uprising of bishops; such an uprising would then toss Vatican II wholesale and “re-establish order” in the Church. Such proposals, upon more thorough examination, attempt to hark back to one or two occasions in the Church’s history when either we had two groups of faithful each declaring a pope, or some other sort of chaos reigned. Trouble is, such assertions originally come about because someone is thoroughly displeased that the reigning pope has not acted as the person would wish, …and I have yet to see any indication that any large group of bishops have begun banding together to consider unseating the Holy Father.

    I think rather than seeking reasons for why we should ignore Pope Francis or insist that he’s wrong, we would be well advised to contemplate what he has said, do our best to understand what he means, and seek to consider how the ideas he expressed might apply more thoroughly to our own lives.

    I’m not big fan of Francis either, but insisting that something needs to change based on conjecture and anger doesn’t help anything.

  46. “But you’ve already debunked this worry yourself.”

    I haven’t debunked anything, Nate. Rather, I have emphasized the idea that we do have large companies who could better serve humanity and this nation by a change of focus. I think it fairly unlikely that a corporation will be capable of pushing this nation into a war, but I don’t believe that Francis aimed his remarks exclusively at the United States. I would be thrilled to see investors and corporations spend more resources on developing better resources for helping people live better lives.
    We’ll always have a need for military contracts, but I’d like to see many of the corporate interests involved also seek to earn profits from endeavors that seek to create things, not destroy them.

  47. As a footnote to that last, I would comment that while large corporations in the US won’t be likely to push this nation into a war, I don’t think I can be that optimistic about other regions of the world, especially the Mid-East. Whether it’s conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, between the Kurds, the Sunnis, and the Shia, the Syrian and Iraqi governments against ISIS, or any of the above being influenced by Iran, there’re lots of cultural and political animousities running amok. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if someone could prove that some weapons manufacturer–or a even a small-time gun smuggler–could profit quite a little by encouraging any of the above to fight with one another.

  48. John and Joanne,
    Yes, I’ve read bits and pieces of some sort of ‘conspiracy’ that went on in the conclave. How one would actually confirm all this would be IMHO close to impossible. Some day, I think we will all know what exactly happened. What I do know also, however, is that we have a good number of Cardinals that are progressive and would love nothing more than to reform the Church into something Christ never intended it to be. For anyone watching Church developments, this fact should be fairly obvious and without dispute. For instance in the mid term report in the 2014 Synod, the dissenting paragraph did not get the required 2/3 vote that they needed, however, more than half of those Cardinals voted yes on it. That fact alone should tell us we are in a whole h _ _ _ of a lot of trouble in the Church. As far as ‘unseating’ the Holy Father, that would be at this point and possibly because of the number of progressive Cardinals a tricky thing to try. Faithful Cardinals would run the risk of creating a schism I would think. I’m wondering if they believe they are outnumbered. I think it would be a different story if we actually had more faithful Cardinals than not, but I don’t think that’s the case at this point in time as sad as it is.

  49. TLM wrote, “Faithful Cardinals would run the risk of creating a schism I would think… I think it would be a different story if we actually had more faithful Cardinals than not…”

    Do you not see the logical difficulty here? For the proposition to be meaningful, the term “faithful” must have a definite meaning in extension. If we define “faithful Cardinals” in terms of their professed tenets, we risk falling into a vicious circle: “faithful Cardinals are those who hold the true faith”; “the true faith is the faith held by faithful Cardinals.”

    As Mgr Ronald Knox asked long ago, “Why did those who anathematized Nestorius come to be regarded as “Catholics” rather than those who still accept his doctrines?” “It is the same with the Orthodox; if you ask, “Who are the Orthodox?” you will be told “The people who hold the Orthodox Faith.” If you ask them how they know it is the Orthodox Faith, they say “Because it is held by the Orthodox Church.” And the Nestorians will say exactly the same of themselves and who is to choose between them?”

    What we require is a test, not a tautology and Catholics have a ready answer: “if you ask a Catholic “What is the Catholic Faith?” and are told it is that held by the Catholic Church; if you persevere, and ask what is the Catholic Church, you are no longer met with the irritatingly circular definition “the Church which holds the Catholic Faith “; you are told it is the Church which is in communion with the Bishop of Rome.” There really can be no doubt that our labelling of this party as orthodox and that as heterodox in early Church history comes down to us from authors who were applying this test of orthodoxy and no other. Any other test would be either meaningless, or simply a reflection of the author’s private judgment.

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