Vaccines: Gambling With Your Child’s Health & Life

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Teaching

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“Parents must regard their children as children of God and respect them as human persons. (2222)”

“The Christian family is a communion of persons, a sign and image of the communion of the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. In the procreation and education of children it reflects the Father’s work of creation. (2205) . . . The family is a privileged community called to achieve a “sharing of thought and common deliberation by the spouses as well as their eager cooperation as parents in the children’s upbringing.(2206)”

“The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially: . . . .the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family’s own moral and religious convictions; . . . .  the protection of security and health, especially with respect to dangers like drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.; the freedom to form associations with other families and so to have representation before civil authority. (2211)”

There is an extensive and voluminous body of work on the Church’s position on vaccines, which says that the decision to vaccinate a child, in most cases, can be a moral decision. This means that there are some cases in which it is not moral to vaccinate a child. This article does not address these issues.

Gambling ?

Gambling can be moral or immoral:

“Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. (Catechism, 2413).”

This article  attempts to show that the child-vaccination decision is based on some very real probabilities, and not  on absolute certainties and undeniable facts.

This title of this article alone has alerted  Pro-  and Anti- vaccine folks everywhere, so get ready for the usual onslaught of comments below from both camps.  Still, please keep in mind, this article does not seek to say vaccines are safe or vaccines are not safe, although it does make the point that it is untrue to say that all vaccines are always safe in all circumstances for all people, and all children. It is also untrue to say that vaccines are always unsafe.

An effort is made here to present some truths about vaccines – that those on both sides of the debate will not question –  and to inform parents who are considering having their children vaccinated.

However, the attempt to do something that “both sides of the debate will not question” will not prevent those on both sides from pointing out, in one way or another, “you got it wrong, “ or “but you failed to present the big picture, the whole story, ALL the truths!” For all that and more, do these internet searches: a. “vaccines and safety;” b. “Big Vaxx;” c. “anti-vax” or “anti-vaxx;” d. vaccines and catholic teaching; e. Big Pharma Vaxx”; and f. “vaccines and autism.”

The word ‘gambling” in the title will no doubt, also be disputed vehemently. It is the correct word. That is, it is and will be correct until the questions about vaccines are answered one way or the other with absolute certainty. It is noted that there is ongoing research on the safety, or not, of the use of vaccines.

Despite what is going to ensue in the comments below, note well: no one will say “vaccines are 100% certain to be safe, always, for everyone.” Nor will this be heard: “vaccines will always cause harm or death.” Put another way, even if the odds are 1 in a million, you are still betting, and you are not betting on a sure thing. If it is said that such proof is “not scientifically possible,” this is simply another way of saying that the word “gambling” is correct in the context of parents making a decision whether or not to vaccinate a child. Those who may say the odds of harm or death caused by child vaccination are so infinitesimal that it is not gambling are implicitly saying it is gambling.

What are called the “truths” below can be parsed, conditioned, limited, explained, enlarged, pooh-poohed, dismissed, and flat out denied. Note well all efforts at such, and who makes the effort. An attempt has been made to glean these truths from various sources and to present them here with their clear implications. Any truth or implication stated below that is shown, without doubt, to be false will be deleted. Still, a sufficient number of them will remain to buttress the title above and the asking of the question at the end of this discussion.

Truths About Vaccines

Vaccines are usually safe. Put another way, in unusual cases vaccines are not safe.

Most vaccine adverse events are minor and temporary, such as a sore arm or mild fever. Put another way, some vaccine adverse events are not minor and temporary.

More serious adverse events occur rarely (e.g. 1 per 1000 or 1 per 1,000,000,000 of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed. Put another way, some serious vaccine adverse events do occur, and the odds are 1 in a 1000 or 1 in 1,000,000,000. For some vaccine adverse events risk level cannot be established.

Regarding vaccines causing death, so few deaths can realistically be attributed to vaccines that it is hard to assess the risk statistically. When, after careful investigation, an event is felt to be a genuine vaccine-related event, it is most frequently found to be a programmatic error, not related to vaccine manufacture. Put another way, sometimes a genuine vaccine-related event is not found to be such an error or a mistake in manufacture.

U.S. government agencies work to make vaccines safe. In the rare event that a child is injured by a vaccine, he or she may be compensated through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). Put another way, there are these “rare events.”

Vaccines are not completely risk-free. The overwhelming evidence is that vaccinating is safer than not vaccinating. Put another way, there is some evidence that not vaccinating is safer than vaccinating.

Nearly 90 percent of vaccine side effects are not serious. Put another way, about 10 percent of such side effects are serious.

The MMR vaccine can cause fevers, and some children who develop a fever can have a seizure; these are called fever-triggered seizures. However, studies show there is one case of fever-triggered seizure for every 3,000 to 4,000 children who receive this vaccine. And these seizures almost never cause harm over the long term. Put another way, there are fever-triggered seizures related to the MMR vaccine; and sometimes these seizures have caused harm over the long term.

Two doses of the measles vaccine are about 97 percent effective at preventing measles. Put another way, about 3 percent of the time this vaccine is not effective.

In rare cases, the rotavirus vaccine, is linked to the development of a serious intestinal disorder called intussusception. For every 65,000 children who received this vaccine, there was one case of intussusception. Put another way, there are children who did get this serious intestinal disorder.

Some babies and children, after receiving vaccines, a few days later or weeks later, have become autistic or have died. There is no scientific proof that is absolutely certain that the vaccines or materials or substances in them caused the autism or caused the deaths. There is no scientific proof that is absolutely certain that the vaccines or materials or substances in them did not cause the autism or did not cause the deaths.

The rate of autism has more than doubled since 2001, now affecting one in 42 boys and one in 189 girls. A recent analysis found that changing diagnostic and reporting criteria account for 60 percent of the increase in autism rates. Put another way, even changing diagnostic and reporting criteria, 40 percent of the increase in autism rates is not accounted for.

Some researchers opine that, although the outward signs of autism show up in toddlers just as they are getting a major course of vaccines, the condition is most likely set by the time a child is born. Put another way, there is a chance, based on what these researchers say, that there is the unlikely possibility that the condition is not set by the time a child is born.

Most medical doctors have their own children vaccinated. Some licensed and lawfully-practicing medical doctors with small children have not had their own children vaccinated, and they continue to  not have them vaccinated.

Conclusion

The World Health Organization has said:

“The fact is that a child is far more likely to be seriously injured by one of these diseases than by any vaccine. While any serious injury or death caused by vaccines is too many, it is also clear that the benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the slight risk, and that many, many more injuries and deaths would occur without vaccinations.”

There is a risk, even if it is called ‘slight risk,’ of harm, injury, and possibly death associated with vaccinating children.

WHO goes on to definitively and uncategorically state that it would be immoral for a parent not to vaccinate a child: “In fact, to have a medical intervention as effective as vaccination in preventing disease and not use it would be unconscionable.”

Mommy and Daddy, will you gamble with your children’s health and life? Do you feel lucky?

 

 

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29 Comments

  1. Nothing is 100% safe. I vaccinated all of my 4 children. I know someone who vaccinated up to her third child – the third child developed severe autism after 18 months. Her youngest two children, are not vaccinated because she blames the vaccines on her child’s autism. I don’t know. I make sure not to give panadol before the vaccine as I heard it stops the body from getting rid of toxins from the vaccine. And I also delay the 12 month to 2 year vaccinations by a few months. I just worry. The government in Australia is quite tough on vaccinating and you encounter issues with childcare government subsidies and school enrollments if you are not vaccinated. IMHO vaccinations are very important and life saving and we are lucky to live in times of good modern medicine and in countries with access to modern medicine. However, it is up to Big Pharma to make sure vaccinations are continually researched, developed and improved to make sure they are as safe as they can possibly be. And governments are responsible for forcing responsibility on Big Pharma because it generates a lot of money for them.

  2. When vaccination started, it was against diseases that were almost always fatal (smallpox, meningitis) or crippling (polio). Now it’s expanded to many that are certainly uncomfortable and often contagious (measles) but which rarely kill anyone given modern medical care. We used to try to persuade parents, now antsy progressives want to use force of law. Problem is: while vaccinating may put my kid at a tiny but indefinable risk, am I not putting many other kids (and adults) at risk from contagion if I DON’T vaccinate? E.g. Does not vaccinating little Billy for chicken pox put his grandpa at risk for shingles?
    The autism issue has to be approached with care, For years, people wasted time and money blaming a mercury-based preservative called thimerosal, only to find the original research to have been fraudulent. People who are hurting (and angry) have a tendency to flail at any target someone points out to them.

  3. I noticed that you cite no actual studies for your claims above. I dare you to find one that says people having 2 vaccinations against Measles will give 97% immunity–and/or that the immunity is permanent.

    This vaccine referenced in the link below in the Phillipines was experimental & mandatory for school age children from day 1. I was expecting deaths from it.

    “The DOJ found that Secretary Garin and other DOH officials sidestepped certain regulations in the purchase of $67.7 million worth of the Dengvaxia vaccine when the vaccine had in fact not undergone completion of clinical trials. The DOJ concluded that public health officials disregarded the identified risks and adverse effects of the vaccine.”

    https://thevaccinereaction.org/2019/04/philippines-to-charge-sanofi-public-health-officials-for-dengue-vaccine-deaths/?fbclid=IwAR0HDuUMwTfZaWPpWMTfQMLUwmhFQDI4w82oF2qTxF1FGG4bPTJ-KcYBd2M#.XKbo10utQVI.twitter

  4. German Measles is fatal for an unborn baby if contracted by the pregnant mother especially in first 20 weeks. This is why health departments issue community warnings if an infected person visits public places or brings it back from an overseas trip. Most women receive the rubella vaccine as teenagers so infection is rare. But Chicken pox and dengue fever are not fatal. So it makes a person ask why we need a vaccine for it? I remember the joy of staying at home as a child for a good two weeks from school when I caught chicken pox. I guess we vaccinate these days because parents can’t afford to stay home for two weeks with an infected child. Sad times.

  5. Tom Byrne

    1. If your vaccinations work, why are you afraid of unvaccinated people?

    2. If the government can force people to put vaccines in their bodies–what else can government force people to do to or put in their bodies?

    3. I have a friend who was given a polio vaccine at 14, developed polio, & has been in a wheel chair unable to use his arms or legs for about 50 years.

    4. One of my best friend’s grandaughter who is 6 yrs old, developed crippling rheumatoid arthritis less than a week after receiving her schedule inoculations at the age of 2. The doctor at out children’s hospital said that her permanently diseased condition of having this arthritis is a side effect of being inoculated with childhood vaccines.

    3. Every time I have received the flu shot, I have had 3-4 day reaction to the shot (the aluminum base is meant to cause an fake allergic reaction to help bring about immunity.). I run fever & have flu like symptoms with the flu shot as part of that reaction–then have ended up with the flu for 5-14 days anyway depending on the year that I took them. I no longer take the flu shot because my understanding is that the form of aluminum in that shot cannot be dispelled from our body because of the form it is in–and can end up being stored in our brains. Also, there are no studies actually proving that the flu rates are reduced or the flu is made less severe by receiving the shot. Even national governments make news releases about how ineffective they are.

  6. “The fact is that a child is far more likely to be seriously injured by one of these diseases than by any vaccine. While any serious injury or death caused by vaccines is too many, it is also clear that the benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the slight risk, and that many, many more injuries and deaths would occur without vaccinations.”

    I grew up during a time when children regularly had chicken pocks, mumps, & measles. I had all 3. Everyone I knew who grew up in our entire community had those diseases as children. Those disease for most children are simply temporary set backs and our immunity to them is permanent. No boosters needed. Children who get innoculations instead of the diseases have at best temporary immunity that is a partial immunity–at best.

    It is pure bovine feces to inoculate children in the first 24 hours of life with a shot of Hepatitis B vaccine–but that is taking place regularly. Hepatitus B is a blood born disease. Now how likely are new borns to get Hepatitis B in their first year of life?

    I have finally decided that this vaccine schedule currently in use is being pushed simply to allow young mothers to work outside of the home after 6 weeks of maternity leave. The government wants their income taxes.

  7. Ezebelle,

    Dengue fever is fatal. Are you kidding? I know someone who had it who was bleeding out her eyes, nose, & mouth. She was only saved by multiple blood transfusions. It is not fatal to everyone. But it can do very dangerous things to your body, it’s organs, etc., even if you are one of the ones it doesn’t kill. They have declared pandemics of it in several Eastern Asian countries.

  8. The Christian Teacher-

    “There is no specific treatment for dengue/ severe dengue, but early detection and access to proper medical care lowers fatality rates below 1%.”
    https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/dengue-and-severe-dengue

    “I have finally decided that this vaccine schedule currently in use is being pushed simply to allow young mothers to work outside of the home after 6 weeks of maternity leave. The government wants their income taxes.”- Diptheria, Pneumococcal Disease, Mumps, Tetanus, Polio, Rotavirus, Measles (nearly gone), Rubella (nearly gone)- vaccines have all but eradicated these. I’m sorry about your friend. My aunt is a paraplegic from polio contracted as a baby. You really need to go onto YouTube and see a baby with Whooping Cough, if God-forbid you already haven’t. Vaccines have come a long way.

  9. Ezebelle,

    The last studies I looked at on whooping cough were out of the UK. The vaccines provided less than 50% immunity to less than half of the children who received them. I know someone in Ft. Smith, AR, who has the Whooping cough at least once a year as an adult.

    Re: Dengue Fever

    “The global incidence of dengue has grown dramatically in recent decades. About half of the world’s population is now at risk.
    Dengue is found in tropical and sub-tropical climates worldwide, mostly in urban and semi-urban areas.
    Severe dengue is a leading cause of serious illness and death among children in some Asian and Latin American countries.
    There is no specific treatment for dengue/ severe dengue, but early detection and access to proper medical care lowers fatality rates below 1%.”

    The important words in that last sentence is “proper medical care” which is NOT available to most of the world’s populations. Also, there is more than one type of Dengue fever. 3 different types of my memory serves me correctly.

    See Dengue Hemorragic Fever bullet & Dengue Shock Syndrome bullet at the link below. Please note the incredible increases in cases. Hence the pandemic declarations by nations in this area of the world.

    https://www.google.com/amp/outbreaknewstoday.com/philippines-dengue-cases-top-40k-1st-two-months-2019/amp/

  10. I guess I don’t know what the children’s vaccination schedule is in developing countries. But if dengue is pandemic, then wouldn’t you want a vaccination for children?
    Whooping cough is deadly in children. Especially babies. It doesn’t matter if the current vaccine only has 10% immunity then I’ll take that any day.

  11. “But if dengue is pandemic, then wouldn’t you want a vaccination for children?”

    I was answering your post that indicated that Dengue fever is not fatal–it is. And I was answering your post that indicated only 1% die when that wasn’t the whole story.

    What I want is for these people where this is pandemic to stop living in squalor & filth. The disease is spread by filth like piled up trash that traps moisture, & dirty water–allowing mosquitoes to breed. The lack of proper trash pickup, clean water, and access to good medical care is what is exacerbating the problem in the Philiipines. I dated a Phillipino for 5 years, or I would know nothing about this disease nor anyone who had had it.

    We do not have a vaccine for Dengue fever that has worked any where in the world, so what I want doesn’t make an impact on that.

    Re: whooping cough: I won’t get into the damage the vaccine has been shown to do to children who have received it–because in all honesty, I don’t think you would believe it.

    I understand that you vaccinated your children with everything recommended & will therefore have a deep need to defend that. You and yours may have all the vaccines you wish. I just don’t intend for them to be forced on me or mine by government coercion, unproven medical theories, false stretching of the Cathokic Catechism, or biased public opinion.

    I am not anti-vaccine–I just think each vaccine should be considered by what we actually know re: the age of the person, their health history, the rate & length of effectiveness of the vaccine, the risk of getting the disease the vaccine purports to prevent, etc.

  12. Even though my younger son was breast fed he had a cold at 4 weeks and an ear infection at 6 weeks. The pediatrician recommended common sense -delay the live polio vacs until the runny nose episodes cleared.

  13. “I was answering your post that indicated that Dengue fever is not fatal–it is. And I was answering your post that indicated only 1% die when that wasn’t the whole story.”

    No. That is the whole story. I copy and pasted from WHO website so take up the statistics with them. It’s not fatal if treated. You even said your friend was bleeding and was treated. Fatal means death.

    I think the flu would kill a person in an underdeveloped country like the Philippines if not treated.

    And they probably need to develop a vaccine if Dengue is pandemic, don’t you think? And from what you are saying, It’s access to modern medicine not vaccine which are a problem.

    My opinion is, repeating, that it is the responsible thing to vaccinate children. But I recognise the adverse affects it has on a small population of recipients. Not as much as you are claiming. I also believe that Big Pharma is responsible for constantly developing vaccines to ensure they become safer as research becomes available. And government is responsible for ensuring Big Pharma do this. This is my belief.

    I acknowledge you don’t vaccinate and respect this. But I whole heartedly do not agree.

    Thanks for the discussion.

  14. We generally get the vaccines for our boys. But several years ago, my Mom got a flu shot, and that night her shoulder where she got the shot became unusable – and has remained so to this day. My oldest boy got a round of vaccines before college in 2017. Within a couple months, he had developed a fatal food allergy – the only one in our family. In both cases, the doctors insist these are not related and the timing is just cosmic coincidence. It would make me feel better if they at least conceded that there is a possibility these things are related.

  15. It is also untrue to say that vaccines are always unsafe.

    *raises finger* Well, any more unsafe than everything else. That’s often at the heart of issues I run into with this topic– there is a small chance that you can die as a result of going in for your sports physical, or getting a sliver. Since vaccines are designed to interact with your immune system, there is going to be some level of risk, and if you’re getting it via shot…well, make sure the nurse actually cleans the shot area and that removes most of the risk.
    MOST.
    Something could always go wrong.

    On consideration, this makes your title extremely fitting, especially at recognizing how little control we truly have.

    *************

  16. *pauses to ponder, in awe, the sheer amazing pile of systems that has resulted in vaccines being so overwhelmingly available, and so relatively safe compared to the vast history of medical practice, that hacking the immune system to avoid getting sick can reasonably be considered extremely safe*

    Seriously. It’s like looking at willowbark tea, or any of the other old, herbal type medicines, and comparing it to now– they were as likely to kill you as cure you, vs one in a hundred getting seriously sick is considered a big deal now.

    It’s no wonder that magical thinking takes over for vaccines. (On both sides, usually connected with the most table-pounding, but I am more annoyed by the pro-vaccine magic thinkers because they usually wrap themselves in “SCIENCE!” and flip out if I accurately describe how vaccines function, or read the rate of problems off the CDC paper.)

  17. Dear The Chistian Teacher, I really appreciate your taking the time to read what I have written. I think the stat re the two doses of measles vaccine is correct. See e.g.:

    From the U.S. Centers For Disease Control, current on their site today:
    How Well Does the MMR Vaccine Work?
    One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.
    Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.
    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/

    If you think my wording is in error, please let me know. I think that the discussion and publicity about all this is very important – and that many parents have not thought about these issues, or even are aware there is any debate at all..

    Thank you again, Guy McCclung

  18. Tom B-
    Shingles is because someone ever had chicken pox; adult onset chicken pox is dangerous, and there was a large spike in shingles cases when the chicken pox vaccine first came out, but there is still argument over if the two were related. The chickenpox vaccine in the US is also made with the stemcell line from a murdered little boy, and they’re going to need to replace it soon, so that is a consideration; seeing as the new shingles vaccine that doesn’t use fetal stemcell lines for production is so popular they can’t keep it in stock, maybe there’s hope for a moral option.

    I really object to the way that “vaccines” gets lumped into one, like it’s all the same thing– as you point out, it was originally for serious diseases. High reward for the cost. DTaP/Tdap, for example, protects against three serious infections that cannot be reasonably defended against with normal measures (disinfect that rusty nail before you step on it!), is inexpensive, and most of the side-effects are those of getting a shot. In contrast, HPV is an STD. The flu shot is usually 30-60% effective and only for the actual flu rather than what people usually call the flu, and people don’t practice basic isolation when sick. Nuff said.

    TCT-
    1) Vaccines don’t give immunity; they attempt to give you the resistance you would’ve gained from having the disease in the first place. For a healthy person with a high functioning immune system who isn’t tired or suffering from anything else that would reduce their resistance, that is very strong. (Mostly because most of the vaccines need to show that before they can be approved.)
    2) I also disagree with over-riding basic human rights such as ability to reject medical care for anything but the most extreme of causes.
    3) I get sick from the flu vaccine, too. My body acts like I got the flu. It is a serious temptation to not shove the vaccine side effects paperwork down folks’ throat when they start trying to lecture me about how you can’t get the flu from the flu vaccine*. I am not willing to definitely get the worse flu I’ve ever had on the off chance that they guessed correctly this year and that it will bypass the other disinfecting vectors.

    *Which isn’t exactly correct– you cannot have a flu infection from the shot. My husband got the shot instead of the nasal spray every year because, as it says on the papers you sign before getting it, the nasal spray can make you infectious if you’re around those with weak immune systems.

    Hepatitus B is a blood born disease. Now how likely are new borns to get Hepatitis B in their first year of life?

    Any body fluid can transmit it; given how hard it is to keep babies from putting things in their mouth, it’s not an inherently bad idea even for kids who aren’t going to spend a lot of time in the hospital.

    Ezabelle-
    It doesn’t matter if the current vaccine only has 10% immunity then I’ll take that any day.

    That’s kind of the rub, isn’t it?
    You will take it– but the discussion is on taking that choice away, or punishing those who don’t make the preferred choice. (Usually with piss-poor justification for the punishment, too; quarantine when someone is sick or keeping unvaccinated people out of areas where there is an outbreak is one thing, “banning from public spaces” is another.)
    The situation isn’t helped by a lot of these laws being so poorly designed that they actually make outcomes worse, such as not allowing any delays in vaccination even when medical instruction is that a vaccine should not be given to an ill child. (As Cam mentioned, good doctors use some sense.)

    If folks were TRYING to destroy public health, I really don’t know what they’d do differently. It’s heart breaking.

    Dave G.-
    Part of the denial is probably attempting to avoid lawsuits. I had to report the cat we lost to a rabies vaccination into the system myself because the vet was too trained by idiot city people who can’t read the effects to admit “gosh, yes, that is a reportable event.” (It’s rarer than rabies itself, measured on a per-animal basis, but it does exist.)

    Vaccines are hacking your immune system to trick it into thinking you’ve been sick. Sometimes, you’re going to get some bad code.

  19. Guy-
    I prefer to avoid appeals to authority at all, because humans being humans most authority gets diverted into illegitimate appeals and thus into fallacy; perhaps build an argument on strictly logically sound grounds? I’d look towards balancing risks as a foundation– such as the NVIC’s route of fully explaining the risks of both vaccines and the diseases they prevent.
    https://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases.aspx
    You might also use some of the arguments from Catholic.org
    https://www.catholic.org/news/health/story.php?id=77999
    (note, don’t use the Spanish Flu example, folks will stop listening; that was made terrible because if there was a blessed thing the could’ve done to violate basic “isolate the known sick” worse than they actually did, I can’t think of it– clear down to shipping the flu-sick home with the merely injured war casualties and those changing duty station, on ships, then distributing them around the home nations)

  20. It is called “acceptable risk”. When one is engineering a product, part of the design process is to factor in and design for failure — you design for the product to fail in a specific way so as to control the risks associated with the product. The same goes when talking about the creation, trials, and manufacturing of medicines.

    This part of the process is not well discussed when it comes to vaccines because your average layman is not educated to think in terms of “acceptable risk” and “acceptable loss” and why these concepts are fundamentally necessary to create safe products, especially products that reach the entirety of the population.

    There is no such thing as a product that will not fail, all you can do is control how it fails most of the time so as to mitigate the harm.

    There are two other things that are also not well discussed when it comes to vaccines.

    1.) Herd Vaccination. This principle eliminates diseases by working to vaccinate the entire population. This also eliminates the need to use more aggressive measures for handling diseases when you allow for a disease to exist within a population. This also has a side effect of ensuring the law of large numbers so that outlier and “rare” side effects of vaccinations WILL appear in the population and will appear sizable, even if within projected tolerance (acceptable risk).

    2.) Principles of Double Effect. Some of the side effects, even known side effects, with vaccinations fall under the principles of double effect. Adverse effects are not necessarily directly caused by the vaccine but are really a double effect.

    Two additional points, while I am at it.
    1. Unvaccinated individuals in a vaccinated herd may appear to be safe but are only so because the rest of the herd does not have the disease making the chance of the unvaccinated individual of coming into contact with the disease very unlikely. These individuals are also highly dangerous for the rest of the herd as they are prime sources for the development of mutations of the disease which can spread to the vaccinated herd. This is also why you don’t mix herds, especially vaccinated with unvaccinated, why illegal immigration is going to cause health issues, and why, if you travel abroad, you should get boosters, and why those in the military get all sorts of shots before they deploy abroad.

    2.) Trade-offs. Often to have X, one must tolerate bad thing B. You want cars? You are going to have to find a way to mitigate smog.

    I’ve written long, but there is a real need to approach the problem of vaccines from a larger scope. The primary issue that needs to always remain in the forefront of our minds is the goal of not tolerating disease X to exist within the human population. We always need to be working for better vaccines where the “acceptable risks” are “better”, not fewer vaccines.

    Because as horrible as it might sound, it is better to be fretting over rolling the dice for your child getting autism, than fretting if your child is going to die. And yes, work on the autism aspect, but like all things, it works itself out over time, while we only have our lives at one point in time and not another.

  21. Lurker #59-
    Herd immunity. (Hate it when my fingers swap out words, don’t you?)
    I can’t remember the exact percent, but you need approximately 90% resistance for it to be effective. This hits the Layman’s Wall because that is resistance— and I can’t think of any vaccine that hits 100%.
    This is important because it means that some vaccines cannot reach the degree of coverage required for herd immunity. Flu vaccine, for an easy example– even on a good year, with 100% coverage, it’s flatly impossible. Even if you remove immune compromised people from the sample.

  22. I can remember a time when anyone entering France had to produce a Smallpox Vaccination Certificate.

    Especially following the outbreak in the Rhondda in South Wales in 1962, the douanier would scarcly glance at one’s British passport, but would subject the Vaccination Certificate to careful scrutiny.

    It was much the same after the Yugoslavia outbreak in 1972.

    The requirement was dropped in 1980.

  23. Foxfier-Many thanks. I went to the catholic.org article. Some thoughts on some of what is there are below. Thank you. Guy:

    Excerpt: “Finally, much of the information against vaccination is misinformation. Vaccines are not as profitable as curing symptoms of disease, so it does not make economic sense to vaccinate, yet the practice is widespread, which is a victory for pro-life ethics. Vaccines are highly regulated. Injuries can happen but are extremely rare. Many alleged, widely publicized cases of vaccine injury are not related to vaccines, but instead are anecdotes suspect to faulty perception. In some cases, misinformation is spread by quacks selling “alternative” treatments or health programs.”
    In the tenor of my article, “Put another way”: Injuries, although rare, do happen. Some alleged . .cases of injury… are related to vaccines. In some cases, the information spread is not misinformation.

    Excerpt: “People must understand they accept a level of moral liability for the health of those around them by choosing not to vaccinate.”
    In the tenor of my article, “Put another way”: People must understand they accept a level of moral liability for the health of those around them, and for their children and family members, by choosing to vaccinate.

  24. Ezebelle,

    Yes. At 9:33 pm in your post above you stayed with no limitations that Dengue is not fatal. You only referenced the WHO when I called you on that statement. Then I quoted more from the exact link you cited & explicitly showed the rest of the story.

    “I acknowledge you don’t vaccinate and respect this. But I whole heartedly do not agree.”

    Twisting my position of reasoned & knowledgeable application of vaccines to an extreme of not vaccinating at all is a standard type of logical fallacy.

  25. This are direct quotes the from the link Christian Teacher:

    “Dengue fever is a severe, flu-like illness that affects infants, young children and adults, but seldom causes death”

    “For severe dengue, medical care by physicians and nurses experienced with the effects and progression of the disease can save lives – decreasing mortality rates from more than 20% to less than 1%. Maintenance of the patient’s body fluid volume is critical to severe dengue care.”

    I’m for the children’s vaccination schedule (under government monitoring). I don’t understand what your view is- it’s very complex- too difficult for my brain to handle. Maybe you can come up with a better system of defence against infectious diseases for the 7.7billion people around the world, besides vaccinations.

  26. Lurker #59 wrote: “ Unvaccinated individuals in a vaccinated herd may appear to be safe but are only so because the rest of the herd does not have the disease making the chance of the unvaccinated individual of coming into contact with the disease very unlikely. These individuals are also highly dangerous for the rest of the herd as they are prime sources for the development of mutations of the disease which can spread to the vaccinated herd”

    This is so well put. Yes, it is exactly what you said.

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