They will know we are Catholics by our strife:
The Archdiocese of Detroit responded Thursday to a video produced by a website operating in the Detroit archdiocese, which it said used “racist and derogatory language” to describe the African-American Archbishop of Washington D.C.
The Church Militant website, which produces Catholic-themed articles and opinion videos, released a video June 11 entitled “AFRICAN QUEEN BUSTED LYING.”
The video consists of commentary from Church Militant founder Michael Voris about recent events concerning, in his words, the “accused homosexual, Marxist bishop” of Washington D.C., Wilton Gregory.
In the video, Voris characterized Gregory as a “liar” and repeated a claim Church Militant has made in other videos, articles, and on social media, that Gregory is an “active homosexual” and has promoted active homosexual clergy to a “gay cabal” in the dioceses he has led.
On June 11, the archdiocese released a statement in response.
“The Archdiocese of Detroit has been made aware that an organization located in southeast Michigan has published racist and derogatory language in reference to Archbishop of Washington D.C. Wilton D. Gregory. The organization in question is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Archdiocese of Detroit,” the statement said.
“Racist and derogatory speech wrongfully diminishes the God-given dignity of others. It is not in accord with the teachings of Christ,” Archbishop Allen Vigneron added to that statement.
Go here to read the rest. Invective has its place but is rarely effective, especially if it has a racial component which is simply foolish and wrong. Far better to describe what someone has done. PopeWatch would say that Voris obviously managed to get under the skin of Archbishop Gregory who seems to have an undeserved high opinion of himself. Go here to view the post. Would that our clerics had half as much concern about the real problems besetting the Church as they do about attacks on their, usually inflated, perceptions of themselves.
We should be happy Voris is on the job. His audience loves it. Of course, he gets carried away sometimes with righteous indication at the corruption in the Church. But who can blame him. If he didn’t do what he does no one would pay attention. The homosexual, spiritual, political and financial mess in the Church is outrageous. Ideally, the Church would start admitting its own problems and start doing something about it. Go Michael Voris!
As usual, corrupt powers from the Church have lied about some pointing out their corruption. There is nothing “rascist” about the term “African.”
In conjunction with “Queen” I certainly think there is, especially since the Archbishop is not an African.
The problem is, the condition of the lower and higher clergy is such that Voris’ contentions (if unsubstantiated) are at least plausible. We do know that Gregory behaves as a cheesy institutional politician, and the Archdiocese isn’t any better off than it was when his predecessor (another cheesy institutional politician) was in charge.
Worse, the only part of it that we have good evidence for is that the Archbishop is, in fact, a liar.
A public and vicious one.
I’d be much happier not knowing he existed; instead, I know that he made a very loud, public stand about having not been invited to an event by the White House, and followed it up with very nasty accusations against those who objected to his pubic incitement of racial tension– before the White House released the letter from his office which responded to the invitation well before the event, and mentioned that the Archbishop had responded in person, as well.
That “somebody made a rude video” is more worthy of public comment than the very public display is…well, quite sad.
The Vortex is like the Weekly World News for Catholics. Absurd, and funny only in small doses, because it’s not clever enough to keep your interest. I did like that even Voris, when he went into details, had to use terms like “deliberately deceptive” and “makes it sound like” because he didn’t catch Archbishop Gregory in a lie (despite the title of the video).
Voris says that any priest who spends more than a few seconds with Gregory will know he’s gay. I’m not a priest, and I don’t know Gregory well, but I had lunch with him once many years ago and didn’t get that vibe.
Oh he most definitely lied Pinky, and he is clearly a partisan of the homosexuals within the Church who are seeking to undermine the teaching against homosexual sex. Whether he is a homosexual or not, is rather beside the point.
There are only four words in the title, and one of them is “queen”, so it’s not so far beside the point. I think you yourself stated that he was deceptive, which is worse than lying outright, thus implying that he wasn’t lying outright.
The funny thing is, I don’t know if he’s gay, and I don’t think he was busted lying, so the only word I don’t find libelous is “African”.
https://the-american-catholic.com/2020/06/09/archbishop-gregory-is-a-liar/
He lied and he attempted to conceal the lie Pinky. If one must lie make it a forthright lie, standing proudly in the light of day. Truth is of course an absolute defense to libel. Archbishop Gregory will never bring a libel suit against Voris or anyone else, because he would then be subject to the discovery process in the suits, and all sorts of interesting items would doubtless come tumbling out from his files and e-mails, not to mention what he might say during lengthy depositions.
No one one misplays a good hand like Mike Voris–the record has has Gregory dead-to-rights on falsehood. So of course he breaks out the gay and race card. Moronic.
The lack of editorial restraint over the past seven years has really taken its toll.
This is such an own goal that CM is starting to remind me of the old proverb about the Palestinians: “they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
“they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
Well said Dale.
Foxfier – There was the quote I was thinking of. “An intent to mislead is worse than a forthright honest lie.” Both Voris and our Don seemed to move the goalposts, by first accusing Gregory of lying, then switching to deception. Personally, when I read Gregory’s original statement, I assumed he’d just been informed too, but there’s nothing in it that says so.
Don – I don’t expect a libel trial, but as I said, I think in the title “African Queen Busted Lying”, the only remotely proven word is “African”.
”Both Voris and our Don seemed to move the goalposts, by first accusing Gregory of lying, then switching to deception.”
Deception is a lie Pinky.
Pinky-
I see in the comments over there you did your oddly common trick of not responding after your demands were answered, and now here you are, again, saying the same thing that was answered by prior demands.
As to deception being lying, the catechism cites #4 here:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1312.htm
If I were Voris, I would have called Abp. Wilton Gregory Al Sharpton in a cassock. Because that’s exactly who he is.
Then I would call out every bishop BY NAME who has been too afraid to address the endemic problem of black fatherlessness and the fact that half of all black pregnancies end in abortion. As far as I can tell, it’s every damned last one of them! They have a golden opportunity to give the black community something it needs the most from the Church, her teaching on chastity. But instead all blacks get from them is the same identity politics bullshit they get from everyone else on the left.
Then I would call out the pseudo orthodox Catholic Media Complex for refusing to call out the bishops for their silence.
It’s hard to understand why the author does not view racism and homophobia as “real problems” in the church.
Oh please! The preaching against racism is constant and the lavender mafia is a power within the Church. Might as well be complaining about the threat from the Byzantine Empire to the Church!
John has a point about racism in the Church, but it’s not what he likely thinks it is. The reality is, the Church in America abandoned its former urban strongholds for the most part without even trying to evangelize urban black men and women. Better to close the churches than reach out to those who still live nearby. Besides, Vatican II says the local Baptists and Pentecostals are just as good anyway–or something like that.
The same flabby bourgeois and increasingly-suburban mindset also led it to abandon working class people of every ethnicity, which is why it’s hard to find such people in your average parish who are below retirement age.
The Church in America is in pure institutional maintenance mode right now: it doesn’t have the energy to actively love or hate anyone. The only emotions it feels are disdain for fractious members of the flock and the endless anxiety of looking bad in the local paper.
If I were Voris, I would have called Abp. Wilton Gregory Al Sharpton in a cassock. Because that’s exactly who he is.
He has nothing in common with Sharpton, other than being black and wearing clerical garb.
Foxfier – It’s not my intention to leave things hanging, but if both sides have stated their positions and can’t come to agreement, I’m content to let it stand. I don’t know how you’d like me to comment differently. I don’t see any value in dragging out a disagreement.
I personally have found that people use the word “deception” when they think someone’s lying but can’t find a specific lie. In both these examples, the speaker starts out with an accusation of lying, then when specifics are asked for, switches to an accusation of being deceptive. Based on character, I don’t think Don is trying anything unfair, but I suspect Voris is.
I think we understand each other’s positions. In my experience, if we just keep reiterating our positions at each other on a comment thread, things get hostile. If there is value in continuing, by all means let’s do so.
Dale,
Your avatar, who is it?
I thought you liked Byzantine characters?
Art,
Both Abp. Gregory and Sharpton lie to inflame situations.
It’s not my intention to leave things hanging, but if both sides have stated their positions and can’t come to agreement, I’m content to let it stand.
Except that you most obviously aren’t, or you wouldn’t have dragged it over here; you make an assertion, are countered on it, and do not respond– then repeat it again later.
I personally have found that people use the word “deception” when they think someone’s lying but can’t find a specific lie.
Definition of lie:
lie verb (2)
\ ˈlī \
lied; lying\ ˈlī-iŋ \
Definition of lie (Entry 3 of 6)
intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
She was lying when she said she didn’t break the vase.
He lied about his past experience.
2: to create a false or misleading impression
Statistics sometimes lie.
The mirror never lies.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie
Your personal definition of “lying” which carves out an exception for “deception” is inaccurate; deception is a specific sub-group of lying, while you’re using the brazen lie as the only form.
https://mondayevening.wordpress.com/2020/06/07/church-on-sunday/
Racism is as much a problem as homophobia in the American Church– it requires redefining the words and doing violence to Church teaching to make it show up.
Both Abp. Gregory and Sharpton lie to inflame situations.
Disagree. Gregory lies to avoid accountability, to help some confederate avoid accountability, and to strike some pose in the media. He’s a tedious NGO functionary who wants the donations coming in so the organism continues to be fed. Sharpton’s a sleazy grifter for whom controversy is his revenue source and who has gotten away with fraud for decades (see the New York Times account of his maneuvers to avoid paying what he owed to Stephen Pagones).
John has a point about racism in the Church,
No he doesn’t. Almost anyone who uses the term ‘racism’ these days is lying to themselves, lying to you, or making a silly debater’s point.
Dale,
Your avatar, who is it?
I thought you liked Byzantine characters?
I still love all things Byzantine, but I’ve always had a soft spot for figures in history who deserve to be better known. Which is probably why I like Byzantium, too.
No he doesn’t. Almost anyone who uses the term ‘racism’ these days is lying to themselves, lying to you, or making a silly debater’s point.
Fair enough–racism is the wrong word, at least in modern times. But the near-complete collapse of the mission imperative in the developed world has ensured that formerly-Catholic urban neighborhoods remain formerly-Catholic. It would be gauche to invite the locals to the parish, so it isn’t done. And then the parish closes.
Whatever the reason, it’s not good for the Church or those outside it.
Foxfier – Surely you would admit that the second definition affords the accuser more wiggle room. If you accuse me of a lie and give a specific case of an untruth, you have a stronger position than if you accuse me of a lie and cite the false impression. As the example in the second definition: if I stated a verifiable statistic that didn’t apply to a situation, you probably wouldn’t call me a liar, you’d say that I was being deceptive.
I remember when Anthony Weiner was initially trying to “clear the air” after the scandal broke, he went out and said everything he could think of except “it wasn’t me”. I wouldn’t have called him a liar then. He was clearly trying to be deceptive, and I’d add that he didn’t succeed in fooling anyone but the most die-hard supporter because he was conspicuously avoiding a direct lie.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines lie as “to say or write something that is not true in order to deceive someone”. Under that definition, Gregory didn’t lie.
It’s Georges Picquart, a major figure in the Dreyfus Affair. A French Army officer and reflexive anti-Semite, he loved France more than he hated Jews. His obstinate refusal to be quiet about the real spy and to stick with the official story blaming Captain Dreyfus led to his ostracism by the French high command. When the ludicrous case against Dreyfus finally fell apart, he and the Jewish Captain were both rehabilitated.
A shame he did not live to lead troops in the Great War. He committed professional suicide in service to France and the truth. He deserved to have a warrior’s death.
It would be gauche to invite the locals to the parish, so it isn’t done. And then the parish closes.
I hear you, but I would wager that’s a minor vector in what ails the Church. (For starters, when the number of ordinations each year to the secular clergy declines by ~55% and the number to the regular clergy by ~90% and the number of women religious taking their vows each year has a similar implosion, you don’t have the manpower to staff those parishes even when you have parishioners. You can invite the locals in, but so can the pastor of the local AME, Convention Baptist, and Holiness congregations.