Friday, March 29, AD 2024 3:55am

Peak Mark Shea

Wait until they start burning churches.  Shea will then be really concerned about the “fake” persecution.  Shea is his own parody.

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Richard M
Richard M
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 5:28am

“I realize this may mark me as an apostate…” The tongue may be in his cheek, but the tongue does not lie.

Nate Winchester
Nate Winchester
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 6:39am

If Catholics are such persecutors, maybe the protestants had a point? And maybe we should do something about illegal immigrants since they’re such hateful Catholics?

Hm. Logic isn’t Shea’s strong suit is it?

Foxfier
Admin
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 6:45am

I’m honestly more concerned by the false accusation of persecution.

Someone over at According to Hoyt pointed out that racism is not a sin, much less the ultimate sin; sins done from the motive of racism are the same sin as those done from “antiracism” or any other unjust trespass against the respect a human is due.


I’m still trying to figure out how to write something more out of it, but Kresta in the Afternoon accidentally made a very good point.
Part of the problem is that he made a very good point in part because he’s old. I’m middle-aged– median aged, to clear confusion, I am in the middle of the US age spread. I’ve literally never lived in an America where there wasn’t overt racism in every cartoon that could shoe-horn the topic in– against “whites,” who are the only group who will do a thing just because of their race, and it will generally be a blond and blue-eyed character doing whatever Bad Thing it is; if it’s non-malicious, generally a girl, if it’s malicious, generally a boy. There are no groups within “white,” at least none that matter beyond reaffirming the goodness of Token Minority Character for the episode. Whites–an incredibly ill-defined group that, in the end, means everyone who doesn’t define themselves by their minority racism minus those it’s currently useful to claim. So my cousin, who other than one Scottish great-great grandfather is solid (heh, heh) Paiute, is “white” because….he acts just like my brother, which makes him “pass” as a ranch kid with a tan. Folks like Bobby Jindal are “white,” in spite of being the first American born generation of family from India. But Shaun King (known to the blogoverse as “Talcum X”) can be “black” by saying what the “antiracists” want to hear, until they’re forced to chuck him under the bus.

The point Al Kresta made was that folks are hurting because they’ve defined themselves by being not-part-of-the-group-which-is-not-defined-by-ancestry, and that makes them feel like outsiders. He was trying to say that folks are actually hurting, and that it’s not tactical, and he said nothing but charitable truth.
It still hit the nail rather unpleasantly square, since I’ve noticed a somewhat similar thing in geek or gamer culture– define yourself by your group, and define your group as outside or opposed, and if your group becomes popular then you have a lot of mental stress.

If people give you what you say you want, acceptance, treat you as normal, the way that a Captain America jacket gets the same kind of attention a Raiders jacket does– the folks who have defined themselves as being hated are made very uncomfortable. It’s real stress.

It’s not real healthy, though, and it’s self-inflected, even if it’s not consciously chosen.

Can look at my uncle’s Celtic Group. In theory, everybody is Irish. Given my uncle’s bardic habits, they probably have a very long, poetic declaration of the blood of (long poetic names for Ireland and general area here).
In practice, not only is “Celtic stuff is cool” enough to join, their first big event was a wedding. Both bride and groom were dark enough to make finding a good color of tartan for the photos very difficult, and their chief piper is a Norse giant, and… you get the idea.

None of them went “You know what? I’m going to make an inclusive Celtic group!” They probably said: “This stuff is SO COOL, who else likes it? You do?!?! Let’s form a fan club to share this cool stuff!”

One grows stronger, the more folks accept it– while “we have super secret knowledge and we control who will be allowed to be with us” dies if it becomes generally accepted.


While I was writing this, had a related, unpleasant thought; folks looked into Shaun King because of what he accused others of. It is very target rich environment, to look at a Progressive to see if they do what they loudly accuse others of.
This is disturbing, because that which can be checked on Shea, fits. Applied to the above tweet….

Art Deco
Art Deco
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 7:04am

I suspect Shea’s daily life is unpleasant on a number of axes. People process that various ways, and one of them is to recriminate.

Stephen E Dalton
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 7:22am

Shea, imho, was never really Catholic. Which makes me wonder, did the Catholics who promoted him so vigorously two decades ago ever really know him? Or were they willfully ignorant of his real personality? And why was he so heavily promoted by the Catholic apologetics community, when it was obvisous he had no real in depth education or knowledge in the Catholic faith? And when his errant behaviors became obvisous almost two decades ago, why wasn’t there a serious effort to correct him, instead of saying, well that’s Mark for you! Shea’s out of control behavior is the result of not applying loving discipline years ago when his problems became known. The apologetics community has a lot to answer for necause they promoted a minimally skilled writer and undereducated buffoon as a ‘great’ apologist for our faith.

T. Shaw
T. Shaw
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 7:33am

If, in Confession, a priest gave me a penance of reading Marx-who’s malarkey, I’d become a Methodist.

Nate Winchester
Nate Winchester
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 7:33am

@Foxfier- have you seen that panel from the iron man comics of riri Williams demanding to be oppressed? Seems relevant to your idea.

Foxfier
Admin
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 7:45am

And why was he so heavily promoted by the Catholic apologetics community, when it was obvisous he had no real in depth education or knowledge in the Catholic faith?

He was “promoted” because he made rational, logically sound arguments for the Catholic faith. Decent skill at being pithy about it, too.

As well suggest that Judas was never truly a follower of Jesus, and wonder why Himself sent him out to heal in His name.
We’re all still humans, and can fall to sin; to use one of those pithy distillations– sin makes you stupid.

We cannot know if people did proper, loving, brotherly correction– exactly because it is done privately. He has been publicly rebuked, has publicly apologized, has done it again, and has been not selected for appearances afterwards.

It’s not emotionally satisfying, but being emotionally satisfying to those who feel betrayed isn’t the purpose of brotherly correction.


@Nate-
Nope, but it’s mildly reassuring– if someone else has come up with something that popped into my head, it probably isn’t entirely stupid.

Nate Winchester
Nate Winchester
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 8:30am

@Foxfier- here are the 3 pages in question.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kotakuinaction2/comments/gfeb99/marvels_writing_is_just_mind_boggling_bad/

Thing is, there’s debate on the internet on whether the sequence is a self-aware parody or if Bendis is a true believer who does not realize what he wrote.

But you’re not alone, I’ve also noticed that some of the cries today almost sound like a plea of, “please oppress me.”

Michael Dowd
Michael Dowd
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 8:41am

I have no idea what Mark is talking about, and, my guess is either does he.

Art Deco
Art Deco
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 9:08am

Shea, imho, was never really Catholic. Which makes me wonder, did the Catholics who promoted him so vigorously two decades ago ever really know him? Or were they willfully ignorant of his real personality? And why was he so heavily promoted by the Catholic apologetics community, when it was obvisous he had no real in depth education or knowledge in the Catholic faith? And when his errant behaviors became obvisous almost two decades ago, why wasn’t there a serious effort to correct him, instead of saying, well that’s Mark for you! Shea’s out of control behavior is the result of not applying loving discipline years ago when his problems became known. The apologetics community has a lot to answer for necause they promoted a minimally skilled writer and undereducated buffoon as a ‘great’ apologist for our faith.

Some people deteriorate characterologically as they get older, I think in most cases along lines that are unsurprising to people who knew them when they were younger.

StephenE Dalton
StephenE Dalton
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 9:40am

Foxfier, to the best of my knowledge, Shea was heavily promoted when he was a new convert. The scriptures warn against giving prominence to someone newly converted to the faith, least they become puffed up with pride and vanity. Yet, this is what the apologetics community did with him. And now, we’re seeing the results of their bad decision.
His “rational, sound, arguements” were probably the result of listening to, and copying what others in the apologetics community have said or written. When I see him commenting on his past and present blogs, or on other sites, his writing style is immature and juvenile. I suspect when he writes his articles and books, a lot of editing and rewrites have to take place to make them worthwhile to read.
The so-called corrections never worked because they were mere slaps on the wrists. There was no force or penalties behind the corrections. Mark realized that nobody was going to really take any action against him, so he continued his unseemly behaviors.

Foxfier
Admin
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 9:55am

Thanks, Nate.

Dave G.
Dave G.
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 12:27pm

I’m old enough to remember when Mark said if you see a wrong committed, and only think of how it impacts your side, you’re the problem.

At this point I don’t see anywhere the Marxists go that Mark won’t follow. That could account for the mountainous pile of examples of Mark calling good what he once called evil, and calling evil what he once called good. If anyone has ever wondered how Christians in the past could follow the horrible things they followed, they need look no further than Mark.

Dave G.
Dave G.
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 12:42pm

Foxfier, one reason is that he did a great job helping Protestants with issues regarding Catholicism. If you’re not Catholic born and bred, you’ve grown up hearing a lot of bad things about Catholicism. If you’re Protestant, you also have issues with many Catholic doctrines. Mark had a quick and clever way of turning those issues around and helping get people to ask questions about their non-Catholic – and specifically Protestant – takes. I remember, for instance, a quip he made that Protestants can see everything from the Beatles to helicopters in Revelation, but can’t see Mary. That resonated. Many born and bred Catholics could have gone on for pages about the topic when one jab did a great job of getting me to think twice. That was his talent. Less an apologist than one who helped non-Catholics see things differently. That’s why it’s such a tragedy to see that he has become almost entirely everything he once said was bad.

It’s also noteworthy that, as a convert, he was friendly to converts and generally at least somewhat positive about Protestantism in the larger sense. Something, unfortunately, that is not always the case. It’s sad to see him once again join that which he called bad by siding with those who have the opinion of ‘yuck, who let those Evangelical Protestant reprobates into our church!’

Art Deco
Art Deco
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 2:23pm

Foxfier, to the best of my knowledge, Shea was heavily promoted when he was a new convert.

I believe he entered the Church in 1987. His first book was published IIRC, in 1996. I don’t think I came across an article by him until 2001 or 2002 (in the old print edition of Crisis). My earliest secure memory of him is as a participant in Amy Welborn’s old blog around that time. The vertiginous decline in the quality of his commentary began toward the end of 2004, IIRC. When he had to get past an editor like Brian St. Paul he was not obnoxious. I wasn’t clear what he did for a living. It was some time later I heard he had a retainer from Catholic Answers and he worked for Jimmy Akin. That was before Michael Voris fished out the Catholic Answers IRS-990 and we all discovered that a small agency with fewer than twenty employees was paying it’s director a salary of about $250,000. I think EWTN had about 150 employees at the time and their president was paid 40% less than that.

Art Deco
Art Deco
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 2:36pm

That’s why it’s such a tragedy to see that he has become almost entirely everything he once said was bad.

What’s curious about it is to compare his trajectory with similarly situated people. That is, people who wrote and or edited for a living and wrote about the faith and the Church (among other things). Amy Welborn, Dawn Eden, Dom Bettinelli, Victor Morton, J Bottum, Brian St. Paul, Deal Hudson, Austin Ruse, David Mills, Jimmy Akin, &c. I’m not familiar with anyone who has followed his discrete path. Rod Dreher decamped to Orthodoxy, but that aside, he’s consistent in his disposition. Damon Linker announced not long ago that he’d left the Church, but his conduct over a period of more than 15 years suggested he’d always been a grifter.

Foxfier
Admin
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 9:08pm

What’s curious about it is to compare his trajectory with similarly situated people.

We’re watching it happen with a guy from my husband’s confirmation class.

It’s a Seattle Catholic issue.

Foxfier
Admin
Sunday, June 21, AD 2020 9:16pm

There was no force or penalties behind the corrections.

points to Shea’s comboxes You want an enforcement arm? Because that’s what you’d get.

I’ll stick with people able to freely choose not to hire him because of his bad behavior, rather than set up a situation ripe for someone like him to be able to have “force or penalties” to use against those who they feel have behaved badly.

Nate Winchester
Nate Winchester
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 9:28am

“It’s a Seattle Catholic issue.”

What does that mean?

Foxfier
Admin
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 10:18am

It’s hard to convey, honestly, via anything other than a form of brainwashing. Strictly speaking, it’s a middle-upper-to-high-income Seattle problem, which is highly effective at preying on Catholics that are functionally abandoned.

We lost a Navy buddy because he decided that we were simply too far right, like the gun guys in Tremors think we’re odd. He said that, as a “right winger”. You see, he believed that Obama was a moderate that leaned right, not a right-winger, which showed that said buddy was a right-winger. Actual centrists that he knew, face to face, assured him that Obama was a moderate Republican as far as behavior goes.

Got that mindset envisioned? Where the idea that the National Socialists are right-wing is correct, because Stalin is a moderate?

That’s your public feed-back.
And I’m slowly realizing that most people really, really don’t have whatever glitch it is that makes me bristle when people try to bully them, uh, manipulate them, uh, use social pressure to pull them into the general consensus.

The whole “birds of a feather” thing– you do tend to be formed by your friends.

Ernst Schreiber
Ernst Schreiber
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 11:24am

I’m starting to think Seattle is LARPing a Dostoevsky novel.

Foxfier
Admin
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 12:41pm

Ernst-
That’s a good way to convey it, yes.

All through the 90s, they were LARPing that they were living the 60s/boomers/summer of love media thing; it morphed into various sexual expressions being identical to a preschool understanding of what MLKjr stood against, which (thank God) kept bouncing off of open pedophilia and has now latched on to fighting racism. There’s also a near-constant theme of various environmental justifications for LARPing the cold war type “we’re all going to die” stuff.

These folks are desperate to find meaning. They get support– strong support– for doing Progressive stuff. They get really nasty, public abuse for breaking the LARP.
It spirals.

Foxfier
Admin
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 12:44pm

All of this is going on while most people are just being normal, BTW.

Other than not putting bumper stickers on cars, which would hurt resale value anyways. (My folks were warned not to take their “BEEF: It’s What’s For Dinner” stickered pickup into Seattle proper, by family friends who would be radical right-wingers of the rich Seattle Catholic bunch.)

Stephen E Dalton
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 1:23pm

Foxfier, force is the only thing that will stop a bully and thug like Shea. Shea has sadisticly tried to get people fired from their jobs, because they disagreed with him. And I’m not talking about jobs with a Catholic company. He has actually tried to get people fired from secular jobs. Thankfully, he never succeed in doing that. However, one of his would be victims struck back at Marky boy. On the advice of Joseph D’ hippolito, the man contacted the police in Shea’s home town, and complained to them about Shea’s harassment. They visited our Heaven Stumbler, and the harassment ceased!

Art Deco
Art Deco
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 1:38pm

He has actually tried to get people fired from secular jobs. Thankfully, he never succeed in doing that. However, one of his would be victims struck back at Marky boy. On the advice of Joseph D’ hippolito, the man contacted the police in Shea’s home town, and complained to them about Shea’s harassment. They visited our Heaven Stumbler, and the harassment ceased!

If that’s the case, the man deserves injunctions and civil suits. If he’s peculiarly undisciplined in this sort of thing, misdemeanor charges can be filed as well. That’s not what’s meant by ‘fraternal correction’ and not why people send letters to Jimmy Akin.

Again, his deterioration has been ongoing for over 15 years and he is 62 years old. Operators of sites like Patheos may get tired of him and send him packing, but he can still operate from a personal blog (something he did in 2002). There’s not much to be done but to ignore him (Unless, of course, he is stalking you. IIRC, he was up to sketchy business in re Joseph d’Hippolito, but I cannot recall what it was).

Stephen E Dalton
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 4:12pm

Art Deco, Shea harassed Joseph d’Hippolito online for seven years. Joe said something that rubbed him the wrong way, and for the next seven years, Shea stalked and harassed Joe in any blog or web page that he commented on. His treatment of Joe should’ve caused the apologetics community way back then to realize this man was unhinged, and needed to be given something more than a slap on the wrist.

Foxfier
Admin
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 5:40pm

That’s not what’s meant by ‘fraternal correction’ and not why people send letters to Jimmy Akin.

Well said, Art.

Ernst Schreiber
Ernst Schreiber
Monday, June 22, AD 2020 9:20pm

“There’s not much to be done but to ignore him

Physicians, (Posters, moderators) Heal Thyselves!

Nate Winchester
Nate Winchester
Wednesday, June 24, AD 2020 11:08am

lol fair point @Ernst Schreiber, but one counter point is that if someone was to come across Shea and see what looks like modest endorsement by some Catholics, and no push back from others, then they might assume he’s endorsed or otherwise embraced by Catholics.

Sometimes the argument is not to convince the other side, but to convince the audience and explain to them: “this man is insane and only other maniacs bother listening to him.”

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